G-Z27232 : a North African clade?

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

Hello everybody,

I'm a Moroccan Berber from the Atlas mountains.
I'm G-CTS342+ which left Anatolia toward Europe about 10.000 years ago. A sister clade got to the Middle East.
All the clades under G-CTS342 are fully Europeans : G-Z724 > G-Z1903 > G-Z3428 > G-Z26414 > G-Z6523 > G-Z27232.
G-Z1903 has been found in Bulgarian and Hungarian Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic. G-Z3428 and G-Z26414 are present in the whole Europe (Denmark, Germany, England, Italy, Switzerland and Austria, Spain).

I'm G-Z6523+ (and very likely G-Z27232+) and my closest matches are Spaniards, especially from Northwestern Spain, which is an isolated area.
All the Jews G-Z6523+ are Europeans, whether Ashkenazim or Sephardi. None of them is Mizrahi.
All the clades below G-Z724 are too deeply rooted throughout Europe (and almost absent from the Near East).

My clade arrived to North Africa through Iberia (like the T carrier found in Late Moroccan G- Neolithic came from Iberia, like mtDNA haplogroups K1, T2 and X2). The only doubt is the exact date. It could be around 1400 -1500 BCE.

Under G-Z27232 (TMRCA: 3400 ybp), there are two subclades :
- G-Z6028 (a Druze, European Jews and a Mende from Sierra Leone). TMRCA : 3000 YBP
- G-Y21161 (Sardinians). TMRCA : 3000 YBP

The TMRCA between the Druze, the European Jews and the Mende, is about 3000 years. Where were their ancestors ?
The Mende is totally lacking of European admixture (for at least 500 years). He can't therefore be of Iberian origins, and G-Z6028 is (until now) totally absent in the Peninsula.
What could be the bridge between the Sardinians, the Druze, the Sephardi/Ashkenazim, the Mende, the Berbers?

Ted Kandell (President of Open-Genomes) theorizes it that way :
- The Carthaginians who had Berber admixture colonized Sardinia : they even brought N-A slaves and workers to the island
- The Druze can be a Carthaginian refugee / merchant in Phoenicia
- Berbers had massive conversions to Judaism, as we can show it from E-M81's and E-M33's Jews. Several Andalusi Jews had North African origins, and its known that Sephardi emigrated toward Eastern European : the evidences lies in the fact that some Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Polish and Belorussians Jews are E-M81 and U6a7a1b (mtDNA). Note also that France could have been a bridge between Sephardi and Ashkenazim "worlds".
- The Mende may have a Berber Y-ancestry : the Ghana Empire was populated by Soninke clans of Mande-speaking, and its territory included current Mauritania which has been Berberized about the IIIth century CE

I'm G-Z6028-.

Screenshot_10.jpg

There are two other North Africans from Berber areas that are very probably (the evidence lies on their markers) G-Z27232+ as well : one's ethnic group is Jbala (Arabized Berbers from Northern Morocco) and the other one is Berber-speaking from Jerba.
A study (Cruciani & al, 2007) indicates that G is found among Berbers from the Middle Atlas (4,3%) and Northeastern Morocco (6%) without specifying their clades. It's certain that - a least a part of them - is G-Z7232+.
Last but not least : on the basis of 37 markers, a Moroccan Sephardi Jew matches more closely the Jebli than he does with the Druze.
It refutes the claim of Levantine origins (Phoenicians + Jews) and strengthens the idea of Berbers/Iberians conversions to Judaism.

We shouldn't forget that before E-M81's founder effects (around 300 BCE), others haplogroups should have been more widespread in N-W Africa:
- E-V65 as it has been found among Basques, Sardinians and Guanches mummies! All Berber-groups have important amounts of E-V65 (Cruciani & al, 2007)
- E-M2 as proves it the last study https://genomebiology.biomedcentral....059-018-1393-5 / there is a Moroccan Berber who carries that haplogroup and his markers are totally distinct from the Western-Africans ones, which confirms its subclade has ancient presence in N-W Africa. Two clades of E-M2 appears to be exclusively North Africans : E-V5001 and E-V4990. The TMRCA is about 4500 ybp
- R-V88 and more precisely its clade R-V4759 (TMRCA : 4700 ybp).
- E-M33 as it has been found among Guanches mummies as well, and in Sardinia (the only link possible is N-W Africa)
- T since it has been discovered in the Late Moroccan Neolithic

In the case of E-M33 and R-V88, North Africa has been the link between Africa and Europe. The same thing could maybe be said about G-Z7232...
It's impossible for a whole population to carry the same haplogroup.

What do you think about it?
I think that the old of G in North Africa is often underestimated

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Have you run Gedmatch calculators?

I believe that Z6523 is overwhelmingly Jewish.

[Iẓeḍwan n Nanna-Tuda]

Yes, I've run Gedmatch calculators and none of them indicates a potential Jew ancestry. I don't score any Sephardi / Ashkenazi with FTDNA.
On the contrary, they all show a very high North African component (higher than the average) and a not-negligible Iberian one. Note that the latter isn't higher than the Moroccan average.
None of my Y matches is Jew. The closest ones are Moroccans and Iberians.

There is indeed a website that claims G-Z6523 is overwhelmingly Ashkenazi but I think it hasn't been updated.
Spaniards, Portuguese people, Sardinians, Berbers, Sephardim... and also a Druze from Lebanon, a Mende from Sierra Leone are G-Z6523+.
Its sister-clade, G-Z22644 is found in Switzerland, Germany, Italy, UK. The same could be said about the mother-clade, G-Z26414.
There is therefore no reason to assume G-Z6523 is exclusively Jew.
Its TMRCA is about 3500 years. Judaism didn't exist yet in the Near East... So, it's much less likely that it was already present in Western Europe at that time, lol.
The most probable scenario is : Judaized Iberians / North Africans > Sephardim > Ashkenazim.
Its known that Sephardi have emigrated to Eastern Europe (evidences lies in Ashkenazim who carry mtDNA U6a7 and Y-DNA E-M81, but there are sources as well).

[Fernando_Spain]

Yes, I've run Gedmatch calculators and none of them indicates a potential Jew ancestry. I don't score any Sephardi / Ashkenazi with FTDNA.
On the contrary, they all show a very high North African component (higher than the average) and a not-negligible Iberian one. Note that the latter isn't higher than the Moroccan average.
None of my Y matches is Jew. The closest ones are Moroccans and Iberians.

There is indeed a website that claims G-Z6523 is overwhelmingly Ashkenazi but I think it hasn't been updated.
Spaniards, Portuguese people, Sardinians, Berbers, Sephardim... and also a Druze from Lebanon, a Mende from Sierra Leone are G-Z6523+.
Its sister-clade, G-Z22644 is found in Switzerland, Germany, Italy, UK. The same could be said about the mother-clade, G-Z26414.
There is therefore no reason to assume G-Z6523 is exclusively Jew.
Its TMRCA is about 3500 years. Judaism didn't exist yet in the Near East... So, it's much less likely that it was already present in Western Europe at that time, lol.
The most probable scenario is : Judaized Iberians / North Africans > Sephardim > Ashkenazim.
Its known that Sephardi have emigrated to Eastern Europe (evidences lies in Ashkenazim who carry mtDNA U6a7 and Y-DNA E-M81, but there are sources as well).

Thank you very much for all that detailed information.

I am also a G-Z6523+/G-Z27232+/G-FGC264+ (and negative for all child branches) from Spain. My paternal line comes from West Spain with no known African Ancestry.

According to 23andMe I am 98.7% European (74% Iberian), 0.6% Broadly West Asian and North African, 0.1% North African and 0.2% Senegambian.
According to MyHeritage I am 94% European (72% Iberian) and 6 % North African
According to FTDNA I am 100% Eurpean (67% Iberian)

Fernando.

[Pine]

Yes, I've run Gedmatch calculators and none of them indicates a potential Jew ancestry. I don't score any Sephardi / Ashkenazi with FTDNA.
On the contrary, they all show a very high North African component (higher than the average) and a not-negligible Iberian one. Note that the latter isn't higher than the Moroccan average.
None of my Y matches is Jew. The closest ones are Moroccans and Iberians.

There is indeed a website that claims G-Z6523 is overwhelmingly Ashkenazi but I think it hasn't been updated.
Spaniards, Portuguese people, Sardinians, Berbers, Sephardim... and also a Druze from Lebanon, a Mende from Sierra Leone are G-Z6523+.
Its sister-clade, G-Z22644 is found in Switzerland, Germany, Italy, UK. The same could be said about the mother-clade, G-Z26414.
There is therefore no reason to assume G-Z6523 is exclusively Jew.
Its TMRCA is about 3500 years. Judaism didn't exist yet in the Near East... So, it's much less likely that it was already present in Western Europe at that time, lol.
The most probable scenario is : Judaized Iberians / North Africans > Sephardim > Ashkenazim.
Its known that Sephardi have emigrated to Eastern Europe (evidences lies in Ashkenazim who carry mtDNA U6a7 and Y-DNA E-M81, but there are sources as well).

Ashkenazim from G-Z6523 are a subclade of G-Z6028 (TMRCA 2700 YBP), which has a Lebanese member - his result is on YFull. Is he also the result of a Judaized Iberian/North African? While the clade ultimately may have originated in North Africa or Iberia, the ancestor of these Jews is clearly Judean, as the MRCA with the Lebanese member is too recent.

As for Ashkenazim who are E-M81, we see the exact same thing: a Lebanese being the closest to the main Ashkenazi branch, again with a recent MRCA date(https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-A5604/). I can understand a non Judean proposal for this branch at the time of your post, as the basal Lebanese addition to YFull is recent. However, it's clearly Judean. As for the Sephardim with E-M81, it really depends how close they are to the Ashkenazi branch, which some are according jewishdna.net, while others now have nearby Saudi members, making a Middle Eastern (Judean) origin for them very plausible.

Also, what makes you think that Judaism didn't exist 3500 YBP?

[Pine]

Berbers had massive conversions to Judaism, as we can show it from E-M81's and E-M33's Jews. Several Andalusi Jews had North African origins, and its known that Sephardi emigrated toward Eastern European : the evidences lies in the fact that

You're wrong again about Jews with E-M33. Here they are: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Z17699/ . As before, the closest members to them are Lebanese and again, after the time of Abraham. These Jews are clearly of Judean origin.