Optimal Post-WWI and Post-WWII Polish Borders Survey

[Bobby Martnen]

Download the map, and then fill it in with the colors as described

Description of numbered regions

1 – West Galicia - (includes Cracow),
2 – Spisz/Spiš and Orawa/Orava - beyond interwar Polish-Czechoslovakian borders,
3 – Cieszyn/Teschen - Silesia beyond interwar Polish-German borders,
4 – Upper Silesia - up to interwar Polish-German borders,
5 – Upper Silesia - between interwar Polish-German borders and Korfanty Line,
6 – Upper Silesia - between Korfanty Line and plebiscite area borders,
7 – Greater Poland - Core (includes Poznań/Posen),
8 – Greater Poland - Outer (meant to represent less favorable Polish-German border in Greater Poland, includes Leszno/Lissa and Grodzisk/Grätz),
9 – Greater Poland - Noteć/Netze region (includes Bydgosz/Bromberg),
10 – The Corridor - Ziemia chełmińska/Kulmerland (includes Toruń/Thorn, Chełmo/Kulm and Działdowo/Soldau),
11 – The Corridor – Core,
12 – The Corridor – Coast,
13 – (meant represent more less favorable Polish-German border including most claims),
14 – The Corridor – Gdańsk/Danzig,
15 – East-Prussia - Powiśle (includes Malbork/Marienburg, Kwidzyn/Marienwerder and Iława/Eylau),
16 – East-Prussia - Southern (up to plebiscite borders, includes Olsztyn/Allenstein),
17 – East-Prussia - Core (includes Królewiec/Königsberg/Kaliningrad),
18 – East-Prussia - Klaipėda/Memel,
19 – Lithuania - Core (includes Kowno/Kaunas),
20 – Lithuania - (meant to represent more favorable Polish-Lithuanian border and more territories with significant Polish population),
21 – Lithuania - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up to Latvia (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
22 – Lithuania - ‘Vilnius corridor’ (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders, includes Wilno/Vilnius),
territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
23 – Lithuania - Sudovia up to river Niemen/Neman, Neman west-bank (part of former Suwałki Governate & Congress Poland, includes Marijampolė/Mariampol),
24 – Podlachia - Suwałki/Suvalki,
25 – Podlachia - (includes Augustów/Augustavas and Grodno/Hrodna),
26 – Podlachia – Białystok region,
27 – Podlachia – Brześć/Brest region,
28 – Volhynia - (approximately former Chełm Governate, east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Russian border with Ukraine, includes Chełm/Kholm and Zamość/??)
29 – West Galicia – (east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Austro-Hungarian border with Ukraine, includes Przemyśl/Peremyshl and Rzeszów/Riashiv)
30 – Latvia – Dyneburg/Daugavpils/Dünaburg
31 – Latvia – Latgalia (includes Rzeżyca/Rēzekne)
32 – Ruthenia – (north of Niemen/Neman river, between Central Lithuania and interwar Polish-Soviet border)
33 – Ruthenia - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up Central Lithuana border
34 – ?? – (includes Wołkowysk/Vawkavysk and Lida)
35 – Podlachia – (includes Kobryń/Kobryn)
36 – Volhynia – (between Curzon Line A and Styr River includes Kowel/Kovel and Włodzimierz Wołyński/Volodymyr-Volynskyi)
37 – Galicia - Lvov Region (territories between Curzon Lines A and B, includes Lwów/Lviv/Lemberg)
38 – Subcarpathian Ruthenia
39 – Podlachia – (south of Neman river, includes Pińsk/Pinsk
and Baranowice/Baranovichi)
40 – Volhynia – (between Styr river and interwar Polish-Soviet border, includes Równe/Rivne)
41 – Galicia - Core - (includes Stanisławów/Stanyslaviv/Ivano-Frankivsk)
42 – Galicia - Ternopil Region - (includes Tarnopol/Ternopil)
43 – Galicia - Pokuttya - (includes Kołomyja/Kolomyia)
44 – Bukovina
45 – Ruthenia – Core Belarus (includes Mińsk/Minsk)
46 – Podolia – (includes Kamieniec Podolski/ Kamianets-Podilskyi)
47 – Podolia – (includes Żytomierz/Zhytormyr and Bracław/Bratslav)

[Peterski]

And here is another one, this time for Post-WW2 borders. So please change the title of this thread to "Optimal Post-WWI and Post-WWII Polish Borders Survey", if possible:

Introduction (English version):

"The aim of this survey is to collect answers about optimal Polish borders after World War II. I prepared a preliminary map, which also is a research tool. I assume that some of you know perfectly the history of Poland and her borders but I feel obliged to add some point for less oriented people who may be participating in this survey.

Outline:

Polish case during World War II was one of the biggest problems the United Kingdom, the United States and the Soviet Union. Britain declared war on Nazi Germany to defend the independence of Poland and its western borders, but soon under the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact country was divided between the two occupants. Despite the illegal annexation of the Polish eastern lands in 1939, two years later, the Soviet Union became an ally of the Great Britain and the United States against Nazi Germany. Polish case was a real problem for allied countries. Poland sought to regain its eastern borders from 1939 when the Soviet Union insisted to accept all of its gains until June 1941, including the annexation of the Baltic states in the summer of 1940.

Polish eastern territories were the real bone of contention between Poland and the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union was insisting that these lands had a small percentage of the Polish population and were mostly inhabited by Ukrainians and Belarusians. On the other hand these lands had a remarkable Polish minority. They also included two major cities of Lwów (Lviv) and Wilno (Vilnius), crucial for Polish history and culture, as well as inhabited mostly by Poles.

Finally, despite the diplomatic talks, Poland lost its all lands east of the Curzon Line A (with Lwów and Wilno) in exchange for German lands on the west. Those changes were accompanied by displacement and refuge of millions of Germans, Polish, Ukrainian and other nations.
The Polish eastern, western and northern borders were decided by Stalin whose determination won against the conciliatory attitude of the British and Americans.

Your role:

You are in position of person who is responsible for deciding about Polish borders after World War II. As you decide about everything, please try to consider this case as much as you can.

General requests:
A. This is not a pure scenario of alternative history or place to discuss about the correctness of the opinion of other users. Of course you can comment on other people's posts. However please do it without provoking or insisting to change somebody’s mind. This topic was created to collect people’s ideas, it is not a field for agitation for one possible solution of user X or Y.

B. On the map the red colored area is not subjected to any negotiations as it is the core of Polish liberated from German occupation.

C. This is not a topic on wishful thinking about Polish Empire from the Bering Sea to the Elbe or German Empire. Any proposal calling to Riga border combined with the line of the Oder-Neisse or coming back to German 1914 borders will be treated as trolling and will not be included in the final results.

Assumptions:
1. Poland immediately after World War II will be fully independent country neighboring from the south with democratic Czechoslovakia and with USSR from the east. There will be a Soviet zone in eastern Germany (please do not confuse this with DDR). The Baltic States will be annexed by USSR. It is not important how the history will be continuing, ie. whether Poland and Czechoslovakia will become communist countries eg. in 1948 - just about the limits and the starting point which is the end of the war - 1945 years.

2. Western Allies only guarantee Polish independence and its eastern border to the Curzon Line B, but do not mind that the final shape of the border of Poland can be agreed directly with the Soviet Union. USSR wants to maximize its profits, but is ready to make some concessions.

3. Western Allies fully support the Polish demands on Germany to whole East Prussia and Upper Silesia up to Nysa Klodzka. By the way, in favor of the liquidation of Free City of Danzig, there is a general agreement of expulsion of Germans from all lands granted to Poland. Further acquisitions in the West are rather questionable and depends on the pressure of Stalin.

Points to consider:

1. Poland is one of biggest among the allied nation. It took the first strike in 1939 and suffered terrible German occupation causing mass murdering of Polish Jews and Polish as well as destroying whole cities. Poland wants only to have secure access to the Baltic Sea what needs the liquidation of East Prussia. Polish territorial demands include also Free City of Danzig and rest part of Upper Silesia. If Poland is going to lose its eastern lands, it will be demanding more German lands.

2. Poland is supporting its rights to 1939 eastern borders but it is ready to negotiate with USSR. The most important Polish cities are Lwów and Wilno and Polish are likely to save them and compensate eastern losses on west.

3. USSR is trying to keep as much as possible but Molotov Line it is very unlikely to happen. On the other side Polish eastern border from 1939 is also very unlikely to happen.

4. Expulsion of millions of people is unavoidable as East Prussia and Free City of Danzig must be for sure removed from German possession. Polish from lands acquired by USSR will be also moved to Poland and about 50% of Ukrainians left in new Polish borders will be removed to USSR.

Map legend:

1. Black line – Polish borders in 1938 (before the annexation of Zaolzie in 1938)

2. Red line – present Polish eastern border

3. Red line + blue line in Eastern Galicia – Curzon Line B

4. Red line + green line in Eastern Galicia – Curzon Line A

5. Mustard line – Molotov Line

6. Grey lines – suggested areas to add/remove

User manual:
Please download the map and open it in any drawing program. Using the same color that was used for “Polish core” and then please use the same color to the areas which should form a post-war Poland. If your idea is limited by any existing line, any modifications are allowed. At the end, please overwrite the file and put it to the response in the subject. All justifications are well seen."

Map (you can also modify borders of regions):

http://i.imgur.com/mOAwYpz.png

[Bobby Martnen]

That is an old version.

There is a more recent version, with introduction in English.

This is the WWI version, you posted the WWII version.

[Peterski]

This is the WWI version, you posted the WWII version.

Yes, I edited my post.

Can you edit the thread title by adding "Post-WWI and Post-WWII (...)".

==============

Something to read on the subject:

About Post-WW1 borders:

"The new world problems in political geography" by Isaiah Bowman, New York 1921:

http://postimg.org/image/848n5n1p9/

Spoiler!

About Post-WW2 borders:

"The Curzon line as the eastern boundary of Poland..." by Piotr Eberhardt, 2012:

https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/ar...item/7563.html

http://rcin.org.pl/igipz/Content/283...-Eberhardt.pdf

"The Oder-Neisse Line as Poland’s western border..." by Piotr Eberhardt, 2015:

https://www.geographiapolonica.pl/ar...item/9928.html

http://rcin.org.pl/igipz/Content/532...-Eberhardt.pdf

[Bobby Martnen]

Can you edit the thread title by adding "Post-WWI and Post-WWII (...)".

I can't edit titles, since I'm not a mod. I'll PM Sikeliot. Can you please fill in the map for the survey?

[Peterski]

(...)

My version:

I decided to eliminate East Prussia completely and weaken Germany as much as possible economically (all of Upper Silesian Industrial Region goes to Poland), in order to prevent World War 2. Also to establish friendly allied relations with Latvia and Lithuania, by giving them Vilno, part of East Prussia and Polish Livonia, as well as ensuring their independence in exchange for strong position of ethnic Polish minorities. Also to create independent Non-Soviet, Non-Communist Belarus & Ukraine as buffer states in the east:

Lvov / Lviv / Lemberg, Grodno and Brest-Litovsk go to Poland though:



So basically I decided to cuddle weaker neighbours and create buffer states in the east. I hope that ethnic Polish minorities will be influencial in these states, despite their formal independence.

Further expansion into Germany is not a priority at all, but since I decided to weaken Germany as much as possible, I marked it as "Priority 2" - it means "why not, if there is a chance?". Of course I doubt there would be any chance to take anything more than what is marked as "Priority 1". Colonial expansion is also marked as the same kind of "why not, if there is an opportunity?". For example Madagascar.

Who wouldn't want to have a colony on Madagascar, if they could ???

=================

Edit:

As for western borders, I'm attaching my map posted later in this thread:



=================

As for East Prussia, I want to give this part of East Prussia to Lithuania:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preußisch_Litauen

[Bobby Martnen]

Thanks Peterski!

My version, I decided to eliminate East Prussia completely and weaken Germany as much as possible

And what do you propose doing to the millions of Germans in East Prussia?

[Bobby Martnen]

Here's my version - makes Poland much more Eastern-oriented than Peterski's, and is much nicer to Germany.

[Peterski]

And what do you propose doing to the millions of Germans in East Prussia?

The same what was done to over 1 million Germans who lived in Inter-War Poland in real history.

Nothing at all.

But many of them decided on their own to emigrate to Germany shortly after the Versailles Treaty.

There was also an exchange of optants: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/optant

Another option:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonization

[Peterski]

and is much nicer to Germany.

I don't want to be nice to the most dangerous neighbours, such as Germany and Russia.

I would rather be nice to my weaker, harmless neighbours.

They are harmless when alone. They can only cause harm when united against Poland with each other, or with someone stronger. So I want to be nice in order not to give them reasons to do so. Instead, they should unite with Poland and see Poland as their protector and their best ally, best friend.