Ancient british Isles DNA

[Grace O'Malley]

From the same study they try to fit Norwegians using the same populations + the Brits/Irish. The results being that the best fit(even if it's overfitting) is, depending on the region ~50-60% Danish + 20-25% Polish + 5-10% French + 10-15% Spanish. Maybe that fit was something like 0,01% perfect fit even though it makes little sense why Norwegians should be labeled like that. Instead modelling them as 50% Danish + 50% Swedish would end up being a 0,05% fit which is still very close and a lot more believeable. To me these kind of modelling doesn't really show anything. In the study they wanted to modell the Norwegians to see if there was Irish admix in them, but that's not really a good method. Are they gonna say that there's Polish admix in Norwegians just because the best fit inlcudes a big chunk of Polish DNA? No that's absurd

Attachment 73094

Can you state what it is you don't agree with in these studies? As I'm not a geneticist I can't address some of your questions but if you look at history regarding Ireland and Britain the information fits. It is also compelling that they date the Norse admixture in Ireland to the time of the Vikings. They also date the British component in Northern Ireland to the time of the Plantations.

They also have done a study on the Icelandics which hopefully will be published this year so that should add more information as they have y and mtdna and autosomal in that study so more information will be coming out by default about the Irish and Scottish Isles.

I do understand what you are saying about the Norwegian breakdown as based on history they haven't received a lot of input from Poles for example.

[Aren]

Regarding your issue about distinguishing different Scandinavian dna why do some areas have more of that Norse component if they are all the same and less of the German/Danish? It appears logical to me that there would be small differences in the dna of the Norse, Swedes and Danes. I doubt they are all the same. I would think the Danes would be more similar to Germans and the Swedes would be a bit more east shifted. Also there are apparently differences between West and East Norwegians so I don't agree that they can't distinguish populations.

That's my point the differences are small, but they show up in these studies where the scientist are trying to get the best fit so thesse small differences matter here. Having Danish, Anglo-Saxon or Norwegian DNA is practically the same from a genetical view point.
And from looking through many, many Scandinavian Gedmatch results I can tell you that the only outliers are far Northern Swedes/Norwegians and certain Eastern Swedes from Svealand. The rest are nearly identical.

Anyways I'm happy they are doing all these studies on Brits and Irishmen, the picture is starting to shape up good ever since the Bell Beaker study was released. Then you have other countries like France that we basically know nothing about. Even the French sample in this study was from a hospital in Rennes and their patients were not picked out regarding to ethnicity or ancestry as that's illegal.

[Aren]

Can you state what it is you don't agree with in these studies? As I'm not a geneticist I can't address some of your questions but if you look at history regarding Ireland and Britain the information fits. It is also compelling that they date the Norse admixture in Ireland to the time of the Vikings. They also date the British component in Northern Ireland to the time of the Plantations.

They also have done a study on the Icelandics which hopefully will be published this year so that should add more information as they have y and mtdna and autosomal in that study so more information will be coming out by default about the Irish and Scottish Isles.

I do understand what you are saying about the Norwegian breakdown as based on history they haven't received a lot of input from Poles for example.

Modelling is not the same as actual admixture that's my point. In Norwegians that 40-50% bit of Polish, French, Germand and Spanish maybe ended up being Scandinavian-like better than actually using Danes or Swedes since you are using more than one population to fit them which is easier ofc.

[Grace O'Malley]

That's my point the differences are small, but they show up in these studies where the scientist are trying to get the best fit so thesse small differences matter here. Having Danish, Anglo-Saxon or Norwegian DNA is practically the same from a genetical view point.
And from looking through many, many Scandinavian Gedmatch results I can tell you that the only outliers are far Northern Swedes/Norwegians and certain Eastern Swedes from Svealand. The rest are nearly identical.

Anyways I'm happy they are doing all these studies on Brits and Irishmen, the picture is starting to shape up good ever since the Bell Beaker study was released. Then you have other countries like France that we basically know nothing about. Even the French sample in this study was from a hospital in Rennes and their patients were not picked out regarding to ethnicity or ancestry as that's illegal.

Thanks Aren for the interesting discussion. You obviously know a bit more about modelling and the techniques than I do. I agree about France. It's frustrating that there isn't a good genetic study on such an important population as the French. Why doesn't the French government allow these scientific genetic studies? It's really anti-scientific.

[celticdragongod]

I agree about France. It's frustrating that there isn't a good genetic study on such an important population as the French. Why doesn't the French government allow these scientific genetic studies? It's really anti-scientific.

I think it is just basic political correctness. The French government apparently believes that everyone born in France is French regardless of ancestry.

[firemonkey]

Could you do mine- M812599? Thank you.

[Leto]

I think it is just basic political correctness. The French government apparently believes that everyone born in France is French regardless of ancestry.

Actually they were the first to declare that a nation should be based solely on nationality. I didn't know though they didn't allow genetic studies on the French people.

[Albannach]

Could you do mine too please. Is the K15 enough or do you need my Gedmatch number? Thanks in advance.
My K15

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 36.09
2 Atlantic 32.33
3 Baltic 12.09
4 Eastern_Euro 8.40
5 West_Asian 5.60
6 West_Med 4.25

[Neon Knight]

The kind of studies you've been discussing can tell us (approximately) where a population's DNA has come from but not when and so historical events are still up for a lot of speculation. We still cannot say with much certainty whether AngloSaxon admixture in England is closer to 50% or 15% since the German/Danish DNA could have come in the Bronze and/or Iron Age(s).

Another thing they don't tell us is how much of a population's DNA is natively generated. Places like Britain and Ireland are bound to have had their own characteristic DNA mutations.