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Thread: Portugal: Regional Y-DNA variation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Even though it was long time ago, if the people from these zones kept marrying between themselves (which is very likely, people didn't moved too much in the past), the admixture percentage must have stabilized at some point. Something similar can be seen among Bavarian/Langobardic-speaking Northern Italians, who still preserve Germanic admixture together with larger lenghts of homozygous genotypes (inbreeding), even though the admixture event dates to the 11th century and possibly much earlier. I'll test one of those Varzim fishermen personally in my next trip to Portugal, geneticists are too lazy debating the PIE homeland.
    You might find higher germanic haplogroups, maybe, but that's about it. The initial norse population was probably really small and it recieved people from various other parishes/counties/regions in the last millenia, if you've done genealogical research you'd know that. Coastal areas - particularly those with any significant economical activities such as fishing - are never going to be totally isolated, especially not for such a long period of time. You're not talking about a random village in the mountains, even if that were the case odds you'd find extreme endogamy were minimal, this isn't a situation like Belmonte Jews (and even here we're talking about a much, much smaller timeframe).
    Besides, one sample will tell you nothing because you'd have to account for personal variation. Even if you do happen to stumble upon someone with higher "germanic" ancestry it will not prove anything because it's perfectly plausible he's just another random person who scored higher *whatever* in a certain test, and there are people like that all over the country. My advise is to not waste your money

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasconcelos View Post
    You might find higher germanic haplogroups, maybe, but that's about it. The initial norse population was probably really small and it recieved people from various other parishes/counties/regions in the last millenia, if you've done genealogical research you'd know that. Coastal areas - particularly those with any significant economical activities such as fishing - are never going to be totally isolated, especially not for such a long period of time. You're not talking about a random village in the mountains, even if that were the case odds you'd find extreme endogamy were minimal, this isn't a situation like Belmonte Jews (and even here we're talking about a much, much smaller timeframe).
    Besides, one sample will tell you nothing because you'd have to account for personal variation. Even if you do happen to stumble upon someone with higher "germanic" ancestry it will not prove anything because it's perfectly plausible he's just another random person who scored higher *whatever* in a certain test, and there are people like that all over the country. My advise is to not waste your money
    One of the biggest mysteries of the peninsula to me is how the Visigoths and Suevians left such a small genetic footprint in Iberia, having in consideration some estimations that say they were about 300,000 at their peak (Berbers were not more than 30,000 when they settled here as a term of comparison).
    YDNA: R1b-L21 > DF13 > S1051 > FGC17906 > FGC17907 > FGC17866


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    Quote Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas View Post
    One of the biggest mysteries of the peninsula to me is how the Visigoths and Suevians left such a small genetic footprint in Iberia, having in consideration some estimations that say they were about 300,000 at their peak (Berbers were not more than 30,000 when they settled here as a term of comparison).
    Well in their defense it's also kind of hard to estimate using our simple tools, distinguishing "Germanic" from "Celtic" is pretty hard even for Davidski, which is why he made that Celtic VS Germanic PCA - eventhough it seems to be focused on the British Isles, and thus potentially misleading for non-British, or at best non-NW Europeans

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    I'm pretty sure a people that navigates in drakkars and use Danish hereditary system and markers will show ubiquitous Nordic admixture. These cultural traits were most certainly transmited via demic diffusion, and the Siglas in particular were preserved by endogamy. Physical Anthrology does detect Nordic traits among the fishermen which would not be detectable if the impact was merely on uniparentals. I'm willing to bet 1000$ on craniology's accuracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas View Post
    One of the biggest mysteries of the peninsula to me is how the Visigoths and Suevians left such a small genetic footprint in Iberia, having in consideration some estimations that say they were about 300,000 at their peak (Berbers were not more than 30,000 when they settled here as a term of comparison).
    Visigoths and Suebis most certainly left a huge genetic impact, genetic evidence does suggests that.

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    Dp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm pretty sure a people that navigates in drakkars and use Danish hereditary system and markers will show ubiquitous Nordic admixture. These cultural traits were most certainly transmited via demic diffusion, and the Siglas in particular were preserved by endogamy. Physical Anthrology does detect Nordic traits among the fishermen which would not be detectable if the impact was merely on uniparentals. I'm willing to bet 1000$ on craniology's accuracy.
    You don't need a big genetic impact to pass on some residual borderline obscure things like that. Trust me, if you were familiar with the social and economical dynamics of the country, you wouldn't believe they left "ubiquitous Nordic admixture" in a fishing place like Póvoa or Vila do Conde, loads of people moved into/from that area. And "Physical Anthrology does detect Nordic traits among the fishermen" hardly sounds like proper science. Do you have any study of that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Visigoths and Suebis most certainly left a huge genetic impact, genetic evidence does suggests that.
    I'm sorry but I'm going to have to ask for sources again, I've grown to be extremelly suspicious of unsourced claims. Not that I don't believe it, but I'm yet to see proper evidence besides some people carrying haplogroups like R1b-U106. I've seen too much internet rubbish with very dubious methods to support stereotypes. In fact, this forum is one of such places.



    Edit: If you want to find higher germanic ancestry, your best bet would be remote mountain regions in the northwest, like Terras de Bouro or somesuch. Even there I'm not quite sure the results would be statistically significant, but who knows.
    Last edited by Vasconcelos; 02-11-2019 at 02:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Visigoths and Suebis most certainly left a huge genetic impact, genetic evidence does suggests that.
    Considering how long they have been in here and their numbers one would think that they actually left a big genetic footprint, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Portuguese and Galicians have roughly 8% to 10% Germanic Y-Dna (overwhelmingly Suevian rather than Visigoth) whereas other Iberians in the centre and east of the peninsula have a lot less, an average of 2% - 3% R1b-U106 and barely any I1 (if you add Germanic I2 strains those regions have ~5% average).
    YDNA: R1b-L21 > DF13 > S1051 > FGC17906 > FGC17907 > FGC17866


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    Quote Originally Posted by Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas View Post
    Considering how long they have been in here and their numbers one would think that they actually left a big genetic footprint, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Portuguese and Galicians have roughly 8% to 10% Germanic Y-Dna (overwhelmingly Suevian rather than Visigoth) whereas other Iberians in the centre and east of the peninsula have a lot less, an average of 2% - 3% R1b-U106 and barely any I1 (if you add Germanic I2 strains those regions have ~5% average).
    Not sure how valid those figures are, but even if they are accurate uniparental markers can be subject to founder effects that eventually skew proportions. They can be used as a proxy, but I think that's it, estimating autosomal proportions could be misleading.
    I actually think one of the hints for Iberians having less Germanic ancestry than north Italians is what Ryukendo pointed out a few days ago:

    But in the Chunkcount PCA, one can see that, starting from the Emilio-Romagna cluster (dark green onwards) Northern Italians are differentiated from Southerners by pointing towards the NW European clusters (GBR, CEU, Orcadian, and German), instead of the Iberians and Basque, despite sharing more genome-wide similary with Iberians and Basque on unlinked markers.

    8S11dQ7.png

    I think, looking at this, there is strong evidence of Germanic influence on Norther Italy north of Tuscany, but beyond this there isn't such evidence.
    You can see it in other PCA plots too. The pull on Iberians seems to be weaker, which suggests - but nothing more than this - that influence was weaker here. Iberians are more homogenous, whereas north Italians are all over the place. Oddly Portuguese also appear to have some decent variation, given how small the country is, but we don't trend towards the French/British/etc.

    I wish we could to the same with Global 25, but unfortunetly the regional Iberian references are too few to draw any conclusions. Here's a close up of the Iberian cluster of G25 with all European populations included on the datase. Don't think much can be learned from it as far as Germanic ancestry is concearned.

    Not sure David's Celtic VS Germanic PCA helps much either

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasconcelos View Post
    Not sure how valid those figures are, but even if they are accurate uniparental markers can be subject to founder effects that eventually skew proportions. They can be used as a proxy, but I think that's it, estimating autosomal proportions could be misleading.
    I actually think one of the hints for Iberians having less Germanic ancestry than north Italians is what Ryukendo pointed out a few days ago:



    You can see it in other PCA plots too. The pull on Iberians seems to be weaker, which suggests - but nothing more than this - that influence was weaker here. Iberians are more homogenous, whereas north Italians are all over the place. Oddly Portuguese also appear to have some decent variation, given how small the country is, but we don't trend towards the French/British/etc.

    I wish we could to the same with Global 25, but unfortunetly the regional Iberian references are too few to draw any conclusions. Here's a close up of the Iberian cluster of G25 with all European populations included on the datase. Don't think much can be learned from it as far as Germanic ancestry is concearned.

    Not sure David's Celtic VS Germanic PCA helps much either

    Thing is, Iberians were already more Northern Western shifted than what Italians were even before the Visigothic\Suevian invasions or even the Roman invasions. Actually, if anything, the Roman invasion in the Peninsula Iberia has only brought us more southern in PCAs in terms of genetics. It would be interesting to know how much of our Steppe is actually prior to any Germanic invasion and how much it has increased after the Suevian and Visigothic settlements, if it increased at all.
    YDNA: R1b-L21 > DF13 > S1051 > FGC17906 > FGC17907 > FGC17866


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