Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 41 to 50 of 50

Thread: Portugal: Regional Y-DNA variation

  1. #41
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    06-23-2019 @ 05:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ancestry
    Beira Alta e Douro
    Country
    Portugal
    Region
    Asturias
    Y-DNA
    E-BY36858
    mtDNA
    H20
    Taxonomy
    Atlantid/Atlantomed + CM
    Hero
    old village folk
    Relationship Status
    In a civil union
    Gender
    Posts
    8,038
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4,325/88
    Given: 5,086/495

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    The presumtion of a significant Germanic admixture in Iberia relies solely on the fact that the two so far sampled Hallstatt samples are a bad fit to model Iberians(aswell as other Western Europeans). With more sampling we might end up with Hallstatt samples close to the ones from the earlier Unetice culture and thus being Steppe-shifted enough to explain that the northern input arrived with Celtic speakers.

    However this Northern Euro-like admixture is not as significant as the Roman one. If we presume that Romans during the imperial period were South Italian like(going by the words of Hannah Moots and her soon to come paper) then there's a considerable amount of Roman input all over Iberia, with the exception of Basque people.
    Well we know from archaeology that there were post-Beaker movements into Iberia from beyond the Pyrenees from peoples with a clear CEU origin, even before peoples from a Hallstatt archaeological context came into play, what we don't know is what impact any of these groups had.

    Besides if I'm not mistaken the Beaker_Iberia samples are lacking in steppe admixture when comparing to modern ones, so naturally they need another additional source, especially when you're (correctly) including populations which have considerably less of this type of ancestry into the model - although I'd use the Collegno outliers instead of South Italians. This doesn't mean that the 17% - or whatever - of Germanic_Collegno is uniquely form a post-roman source, so the figure will naturally be considerably lower than that


  2. #42
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Last Online
    01-23-2020 @ 03:24 PM
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Country
    Sweden
    Gender
    Posts
    2,414
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,272/65
    Given: 622/42

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasconcelos View Post
    Well we know from archaeology that there were post-Beaker movements into Iberia from beyond the Pyrenees from peoples with a clear CEU origin, even before peoples from a Hallstatt archaeological context came into play, what we don't know is what impact any of these groups had.

    Besides if I'm not mistaken the Beaker_Iberia samples are lacking in steppe admixture when comparing to modern ones, so naturally they need another additional source, especially when you're (correctly) including populations which have considerably less of this type of ancestry into the model. This doesn't mean that the 17% - or whatever - of Germanic_Collegno is uniquely form a post-roman source, so the figure will naturally be considerably lower than that
    No, the Beaker_Iberia average in the PCA 25 spreadsheet has around 45% Dutch-Beaker admixture, about the same Steppe as modern Basques in other words.

    "distance%=1.5071"

    Beaker_Iberia

    Iberia_Central_CA,53.2
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,46.8


    "distance%=2.2405"

    Basque_Spanish

    Iberia_Central_CA,52.2
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,47.8

  3. #43
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    06-23-2019 @ 05:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ancestry
    Beira Alta e Douro
    Country
    Portugal
    Region
    Asturias
    Y-DNA
    E-BY36858
    mtDNA
    H20
    Taxonomy
    Atlantid/Atlantomed + CM
    Hero
    old village folk
    Relationship Status
    In a civil union
    Gender
    Posts
    8,038
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4,325/88
    Given: 5,086/495

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    No, the Beaker_Iberia average in the PCA 25 spreadsheet has around 45% Dutch-Beaker admixture, about the same Steppe as modern Basques in other words.

    "distance%=1.5071"

    Beaker_Iberia

    Iberia_Central_CA,53.2
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,46.8


    "distance%=2.2405"

    Basque_Spanish

    Iberia_Central_CA,52.2
    Beaker_The_Netherlands,47.8
    Fair enough, but naturally the model would require additional steppe because of the Roman and N_African shares of ancestry, and the point is that we dont know how much each group brought. And until we have samples avaliable, we'll stay in the dark.

  4. #44
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Last Online
    01-23-2020 @ 03:24 PM
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Country
    Sweden
    Gender
    Posts
    2,414
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,272/65
    Given: 622/42

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasconcelos View Post
    Fair enough, but naturally the model would require additional steppe because of the Roman and N_African shares of ancestry, and the point is that we dont know how much each group brought. And until we have samples avaliable, we'll stay in the dark.
    Ofc, but since they do have East Med/Roman and North African input, both populations with either really low steppe or near absent in the case of Mozabite Berbers then it means that the Iberian population prior to these admixture events, ie pre-Roman era must've been more Steppe shifted than modern Basques and Beaker-period Iberians. Unless ofc this northern inout came with the various Germanic tribes after that.
    Another possibility could be that the Romans who settled in Iberia were more North Euro shifted than modern Southern Italians and came from, say Northern Italy.

  5. #45
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    06-23-2019 @ 05:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ancestry
    Beira Alta e Douro
    Country
    Portugal
    Region
    Asturias
    Y-DNA
    E-BY36858
    mtDNA
    H20
    Taxonomy
    Atlantid/Atlantomed + CM
    Hero
    old village folk
    Relationship Status
    In a civil union
    Gender
    Posts
    8,038
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4,325/88
    Given: 5,086/495

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    the Iberian population prior to these admixture events, ie pre-Roman era must've been more Steppe shifted than modern Basques and Beaker-period Iberians.
    They were

  6. #46
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Last Online
    01-23-2020 @ 03:24 PM
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Country
    Sweden
    Gender
    Posts
    2,414
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,272/65
    Given: 622/42

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasconcelos View Post
    Ah, I hadn't noticed the three Iron-Age individuals before. Well now I'm almost sure that this northern shift must've come with Celtic speakers or some other kind of migration from the Pyrenees. 55-60% Dutch-Beaker input is all that's needed for modern Iberians.

  7. #47
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Last Online
    06-23-2019 @ 05:45 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ethnicity
    Iberian
    Ancestry
    Beira Alta e Douro
    Country
    Portugal
    Region
    Asturias
    Y-DNA
    E-BY36858
    mtDNA
    H20
    Taxonomy
    Atlantid/Atlantomed + CM
    Hero
    old village folk
    Relationship Status
    In a civil union
    Gender
    Posts
    8,038
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4,325/88
    Given: 5,086/495

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    Ah, I hadn't noticed the three Iron-Age individuals before. Well now I'm almost sure that this northern shift must've come with Celtic speakers or some other kind of migration from the Pyrenees. 55-60% Dutch-Beaker input is all that's needed for modern Iberians.
    Yeah, but we know nothing about those samples in particular, they could be outliers, a dead-end or just an elite that contributed very little - three samples is really too little, but it's better than 0 of course - but I still think many IA Iberians will be roughly similar to those. It's another reason why I'm skeptical of a significant impact of Suebi/Goths, we probably won't need a very large amount of it once those samples are avaliable.

  8. #48
    Anthropology, Archeogenetics and Linguistics Token's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Last Online
    Today @ 10:46 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Saxon
    Ethnicity
    Saxon
    Ancestry
    Saxony
    Country
    Brazil
    Region
    Rio Grande do Sul
    Taxonomy
    Saxon
    Hero
    Broly
    Relationship Status
    In a relationship
    Gender
    Posts
    4,919
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 4,588/108
    Given: 1,548/46

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    One thing is certain regarding non-Basque Iberians. They need a more northerly admixture than just the one they got from the Beaker period Iberians. It's possible that there was a re-emergence of Steppe-rich people in Iberia during the Bronze Age that increased the Steppe admixture, but that's just speculation without having a lot of LBA Iberian samples.
    The presumtion of a significant Germanic admixture in Iberia relies solely on the fact that the two so far sampled Hallstatt samples are a bad fit to model Iberians(aswell as other Western Europeans). With more sampling we might end up with Hallstatt samples close to the ones from the earlier Unetice culture and thus being Steppe-shifted enough to explain that the northern input arrived with Celtic speakers.

    However this Northern Euro-like admixture is not as significant as the Roman one. If we presume that Romans during the imperial period were South Italian like(going by the words of Hannah Moots and her soon to come paper) then there's a considerable amount of Roman input all over Iberia, with the exception of Basque people.

    Some nMonte runs I made

    ...
    Celtic admixture should be there, but there is still room for Germanic admixture if Iberians got that much of Roman admixture. These steppe-shifted Iron Age samples are very early (~1000BC, when Celts supposedly began crossing the Pyrenees) and this is evidenced by their inhomogeneity, the most eastern one might be a full blown Hallstatt girl based on her level of steppe admix. However, if pre-Roman Iberians from later periods turns out to be as as French-like as these early samples, then i admit we would not need any Germanic admix to get to Iberians. About your last models, i think you are confusing Unetice for Urnfield, Unetice isn't Celtic and have no relations to Hallstatt, so hardly relevant to the ancestry of present-day Iberians.

  9. #49
    Alma portuguesa Damio de Gis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Last Online
    06-14-2019 @ 10:49 PM
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Romance
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Country
    Portugal
    Gender
    Posts
    19,074
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 10,275/136
    Given: 2,353/0

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyoga7 View Post
    Boas, sabes se existe outro estudo semelhante?
    Tenho a ideia de ter visto um outro estudo com tabelas em vrias pginas, mas no consigo encontrar...
    Na altura s encontrei este. antigo mas melhor que nada.

    If anyone has a more recent study about regional Y-DNA in Portugal, feel free to post. This one is kind of old.

  10. #50
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
    Last Online
    01-23-2020 @ 03:24 PM
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Country
    Sweden
    Gender
    Posts
    2,414
    Thumbs Up/Down
    Received: 1,272/65
    Given: 622/42

    1 Not allowed! Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    Celtic admixture should be there, but there is still room for Germanic admixture if Iberians got that much of Roman admixture. These steppe-shifted Iron Age samples are very early (~1000BC, when Celts supposedly began crossing the Pyrenees) and this is evidenced by their inhomogeneity, the most eastern one might be a full blown Hallstatt girl based on her level of steppe admix. However, if pre-Roman Iberians from later periods turns out to be as as French-like as these early samples, then i admit we would not need any Germanic admix to get to Iberians. About your last models, i think you are confusing Unetice for Urnfield, Unetice isn't Celtic and have no relations to Hallstatt, so hardly relevant to the ancestry of present-day Iberians.
    I used Unetice cause there's no Urnfield samples in the spreadsheet nor any other MBA-LBA samples from central Europe(that I'm aware of) apart from the Unetice culture.

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Would you prefer monogamy or variation?
    By Mary in forum Dating and Relationships
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 04-25-2018, 02:40 PM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-02-2017, 11:21 AM
  3. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-03-2017, 09:01 PM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-01-2012, 02:30 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •