Proto-Celtic/Celtic ethnogenesis?

[Albion]

Are the two theories that incompatible?



Er... what???

Not if you consider this theory which seems to fit the evidence very well.

[awyr dywyll]

The affinities of the ancient common language suggest a central European origin. Aspects of the modern languages hint at other substrata. The affinities of the modern speakers' genetics likewise point mostly to an older linguistic layer.

Central Europe had nothing to do with Celtic homeland

I'm intensely sceptical of an Iberian Urheimat, given the non-IE presence there. Even if Tartessian is demonstrated to be so Celtic as Koch and co. would like, this still doesn't mean that Celtic speech was first heard there, just that it got there earlier than we expected. (I'm not impressed with the Celtic 'translations' of Tartessus, though.)

According to written sources Celts lived in Iberia in Iron Age.Between Guadiana and Tejo rivers near hypothethetical Tartessus kingdom

Sadly, the Milesians are a scholarly fiction from early Christian times, more inspired by Irish admiration of Hispanic learning (especially of Sevilla's great Isidorus) than by tradition. Native stories point as much to Britain and Gaul, and tend to indicate a multi-pronged advance of Celticism.

Real fiction was groundless theory of La Tene and Halstatt Celtic homeland

And of course Celts and celtic-speaking people didn't arrive in Iberia in La Tene period through Pirenees mountains.They'd already lived in Portugal and north-western Spain. The only explanation is that one of the homelands of Celts was there and connected with Castro Culture and another cultures to the north,along Atlantic coast

[Geni]

That's the point, I speak a Latin changed or distorted by time, but as a Cantabrian my origins are Celtic people of my signature.



This is a "Lábaru Cántabru" an ancient Celt flag of my people.



"Etymologically, the word comes from (p)lab- which means to speak in a number of Celtic languages, many of which have derivatives. For example, in Welsh llafar means "speech", "language", "voice". Ancient Cornish and Breton have lavar, "word", and ancient Irish has labrad: "language", "speech".[1]"

"Through the Cantabrian War and the surrender of the Cantabri and Astures to Rome, the Roman legions adopted from them the solar symbol of twin crosses and lunar symbols, such as the Cantabri lábaro. They would still be carrying this standard 300 years later. The Roman army also copied from the Cantabri the cavalry tactics circulus cantabricus and cantabricus impetus as already mentioned."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1baru

Labaru ..curious..LLafe...LLafos in albanian =speech,to discute..

[TheOldNorth]

Spanish/Atlantic ethnogenesis=true ethnogenesis

[PaleoEuropean]

I have somewhat of an obsession with the Celts. Recently, because of the works of some geneticists, some have postulated that the Celtic ethnogenesis happened in Spain. Others keep with the traditional idea that the ethnogenesis happened in Central Europe, specifically Southern German/Austria.

Here are outlines of the two basic theories, keep in mind I'm no expert:

1) Central Europe ethnogenesis
In this theory, the Celts are descendants of the Kurgan culture from Southern Russia. They slowly invaded Europe, conquering and then mingling with Bell Beaker peoples, and adapting to their new surroundings. This settlement and interaction resulted in the development of the culture associated with Hallstatt - "Celtic culture". The new ethnic Celts then pushed into France, Spain, and eventually Britain and Ireland.

From a racial viewpoint, Coon argued that the warrior types found at Hallstatt and La Tene tended to correspond Corded Ware and Kurgan types(Nordid, basically). These Nordids then mixed a little with the Bell Beakers(Dinarids), before invading France and then the Isles. Coon actually thought the "Celtic type" made a majority in Britain and were stereotypically associated with the English.

However, as I'll explain, some genetic research seems to contradict this...


2) Spanish ethnogenesis
In this theory, the Megalithic people who settled Spain and then Britain and Ireland spoke Celtic languages. Rather than spread through military conquests from Southern Russia - "Kurgan Hypothesis" - this different idea of the spread of Indo-European languages sees them resulting from Neolithic farming settlement of the Mediterranean, associated with the Megalith builders. Essentially, one branch of the Indo-European languages originated in Turkey, spread from their to Greek, from thence to Italy, and then to Spain, the Isles, and then to France. I guess in this theory, Celtic languages develop out of Latin rather than the other way around - and the people who brought farming to Britain and Ireland already spoke Celtic.

The main support for this theory is genetic information. Genetically, it seems very hard to prove a Celtic invasion of the British Isles during the Iron Age. Rather, most Britains and Irish genetically seem related most to Neolithic Megalith builders - as does Northern Spain and Northwest France - all areas where Celtic languages were spoken.

There's also some support from Celtic mythology - the Irish, for example, saw themselves as being descended from settlers from Iberia, and these legends don't speak of an invasion or conquering another peoples - as would have happened in the Kurgan hypothesis. There's also little archaeological evidence in either Britain or Ireland for any military invasion during the Iron Age - the implication being that the Celtic-speaking settlements of the Isles happened in a period where they held little indigenous population, and thus did not require a "conquest" as the Kurgan hypothesis holds.

There is definite evidence of a warlike Iron Age culture in Central FRance and Central Germany, however. In the Spanish hypothesis, thus, Celtic invasions of central Europe would have begun from either the British Isles or Spain, and would have been violent in nature due to the established agriculture/large populations in those areas when the Megalith builders came around.

There three distinct Celts, The Alpine Celts, Iberian/Basque Celts and the Germanic Celts. They like most cultures were a patchwork of peoples brought together by language and intermarriage. The only true Celts are Alpine Celts, they started the culture and from there it spread and mutated, much like many others have before and after.

[TheOldNorth]

There three distinct Celts, The Alpine Celts, Iberian/Basque Celts and the Germanic Celts. They like most cultures were a patchwork of peoples brought together by language and intermarriage. The only true Celts are Alpine Celts, they started the culture and from there it spread and mutated, much like many others have before and after.

the alpine celts gained their language from the iberian celts, making the iberian celts the true celts

[PaleoEuropean]

the alpine celts gained their language from the iberian celts, making the iberian celts the true celts

Alpine Celts invented all the cool helmets and shit though XD

[TheOldNorth]

Alpine Celts invented all the cool helmets and shit though XD

pots aren't people! and neither are helmets

[SharpFork]

The Atlantic fringe hypothesis has to be the most retarded theory you could make up about Celtic ethnogenesis, the only reason it's maybe supported it's because it conveniently puts the homeland where modern Celtic larpers from both Spain, France and the British isles live as opposed to the Central European hypothesis.

[Grace O'Malley]

The Atlantic fringe hypothesis has to be the most retarded theory you could make up about Celtic ethnogenesis, the only reason it's maybe supported it's because it conveniently puts the homeland where modern Celtic larpers from both Spain, France and the British isles live as opposed to the Central European hypothesis.

I don't think Celtic is from the West but it remains to be explained why places like Ireland were/are Celtic speakers without having much contact with Hallstatt. It's still a bit of a mystery.