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Thread: Proto-Celtic/Celtic ethnogenesis?

  1. #71
    Veteran Member TheOldNorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    Not really what? You can easily use Global25 and compare Bronze Age Iberians with Iron Age Celtiberians, and Bronze Age Britons/Irish with Iron Age (and modern) Britons/Irish to see that both were impacted by a Hallstatt-like population in that interval.
    how much was iron age irish impacted?


  2. #72
    Veteran Member Creoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldNorth View Post
    how much was iron age irish impacted?
    There are no Iron Age Irish samples, but see this earlier post from Token.
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5780952

    qpAdm run targeting Iron Age Britons. It looks like a mass replacement to me.

    England_IA
    Britain_&_Ireland_BA 0.5550.172
    Hallstatt 0.4450.172

    chisq 18.513
    tail prob 0.100973

    Modern-day Irish people also shows substantial Hallstatt-like contribution, no matter which sample from the Bronze Age British Isles you are using as reference.

    "distance%=2.1656"
    Irish
    Ireland_EBA,68.6
    Hallstatt_Bylany,31.4
    Modern Irish ought to have similar or less amounts of Hallstatt-like influence compared to Iron Age Irish (considering later Germanic influence).

    All peoples of the British Isles are noticeably southern shifted compared to their Bronze Age counterparts. IMO that can only be from one thing.
    "differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate with many of today's racial constructs are real" - (((David Reich)))
    "genetic variations are likely to affect behaviour and cognition just as they affect other traits" - (((David Reich)))

  3. #73
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    Grace O'Malley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creoda View Post
    There are no Iron Age Irish samples, but see this earlier post from Token.
    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5780952


    Modern Irish ought to have similar or less amounts of Hallstatt-like influence compared to Iron Age Irish (considering later Germanic influence).

    All peoples of the British Isles are noticeably southern shifted compared to their Bronze Age counterparts. IMO that can only be from one thing.
    The only way we will know is by using ancient genomes from different periods and comparing. While the model above is interesting the Hallstatt amount would be inflated because the Irish have changed from Rathlin. Personally I doubt Hallstatt had mach an impact on the Irish but I'm waiting on the Cassidy paper which I'm sure will cover this.

    This is what you get using different models.

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.2669,
    "England_Saxon": 100,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    {"sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.6765,
    "SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna": 81.67,
    "IRL_BA": 18.33,

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.073,
    "England_Saxon": 88.33,
    "CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany": 11.67,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    So I don't think using the Bronze Age Irish and something else is going what further populations contributed to the Irish. By May next year the Cassidy paper will be released and hopefully we will have a lot more Irish samples.

    The Morrigan (also Mrrigan or Morrigu) is one of the most mysterious figures in Irish mythology.
    The name Morrigan means 'phantom queen' (or 'great queen') and describes a Goddess from old Ireland that was very associated with war, destiny, fate and death.
    She was a shape-shifter and frequently appeared as a black crow, an ominous sign for those who saw her prior to battle. Legend has it that the Morrigan was in fact a triad of sisters, often named as Badb, Macha and Nemain, while the Morrigan is also remembered as the triad of the land Goddesses riu, Banba and Fdla.


    http://www.ireland-information.com/i...sh-legend.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    The only way we will know is by using ancient genomes from different periods and comparing. While the model above is interesting the Hallstatt amount would be inflated because the Irish have changed from Rathlin. Personally I doubt Hallstatt had mach an impact on the Irish but I'm waiting on the Cassidy paper which I'm sure will cover this.

    This is what you get using different models.

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.2669,
    "England_Saxon": 100,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    {"sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.6765,
    "SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna": 81.67,
    "IRL_BA": 18.33,

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.073,
    "England_Saxon": 88.33,
    "CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany": 11.67,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    So I don't think using the Bronze Age Irish and something else is going what further populations contributed to the Irish. By May next year the Cassidy paper will be released and hopefully we will have a lot more Irish samples.
    How come Irish have so little Bronze Age indigenous component when using Viking samples as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpFork View Post
    How come Irish have so little Bronze Age indigenous component when using Viking samples as well?
    the samples might have been from the northern or eastern regions of Ireland

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheOldNorth View Post
    the samples might have been from the northern or eastern regions of Ireland
    It shouldn't matter, it's not like Scandinavians and Irish experienced the same genetic drift, one would still mostly Bronze Age admixture.

  7. #77
    Veteran Member TheOldNorth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpFork View Post
    It shouldn't matter, it's not like Scandinavians and Irish experienced the same genetic drift, one would still mostly Bronze Age admixture.
    not unless the neolithic 'black irish' genes were more common among the lower class, who are less likely to marry outwards

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    Veteran Member Creoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SharpFork View Post
    It shouldn't matter, it's not like Scandinavians and Irish experienced the same genetic drift, one would still mostly Bronze Age admixture.
    It's very probable that the Irish are descended mostly from Bronze Age Irish/British, those particular models just aren't very good.
    "differences in genetic ancestry that happen to correlate with many of today's racial constructs are real" - (((David Reich)))
    "genetic variations are likely to affect behaviour and cognition just as they affect other traits" - (((David Reich)))

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post
    The only way we will know is by using ancient genomes from different periods and comparing. While the model above is interesting the Hallstatt amount would be inflated because the Irish have changed from Rathlin. Personally I doubt Hallstatt had mach an impact on the Irish but I'm waiting on the Cassidy paper which I'm sure will cover this.

    This is what you get using different models.

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.2669,
    "England_Saxon": 100,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    {"sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.6765,
    "SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna": 81.67,
    "IRL_BA": 18.33,

    "sample": "Irish:Average",
    "fit": 1.073,
    "England_Saxon": 88.33,
    "CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany": 11.67,
    "IRL_BA": 0,

    So I don't think using the Bronze Age Irish and something else is going what further populations contributed to the Irish. By May next year the Cassidy paper will be released and hopefully we will have a lot more Irish samples.
    Try using only Bronze Age samples
    .

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