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Thread: The European Populations

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    I don't think that's recent Russian admixture. I think it's more ancient and Steppe-related.
    Okay but it ultimately came from Europe. So it should not be counted as Non-European.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    The Sami's Mongoloid admixture is exaggerated
    Ancient Saami (Kola Peninsula, 1500 BC) were more Mongoloid than modern ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Sardinians are the most unmixed descendants of Middle Neolithic farmers in Europe.

    They are like living fossils of Western Europeans before the Indo-European expansion.

    Other Western Europeans have been altered by Indo-European admixture.
    This from my Livingdna on gedmatch genesis. It must be wrong.


    # Population Percent
    1 W_Eurasian 98.44
    2 SSA 1.56


    Finished reading population data. 129 populations found.
    3 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Sardinian @ 0.403510


    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Sardinian +50% Sardinian @ 0.403510

  4. #34
    In Corpore Sardo Mens-Sarda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    It peaks in the Basques. It would have a higher European weighting if Sardinia is counted as European but I think it is pretty clear that Sardinia lies almost exactly between Europe and Africa. That's why I skipped it.
    Sardinia is European since the dawn of time, the geographical position means nothing.
    Non Auro, Sed Ferro, Recuperanda Est Patria (Not by Gold, But by Iron, Is the Nation to be Recovered) - Marcus Furius Camillus (Roman General)

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    Veteran Member Neon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Isn't this due to recent (Medieval and later) Russian admixture though?

    For example ancient Proto-Saami (Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov, Kola Peninsula, 1500 BC) were like modern Yukagirs and Mansi - whereas modern Saami are more European, due to recent mixing with Finns, Russians and Scandinavians
    It is the current positions of the components that counts. The modern Sami are concentrated in Europe and nowhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mens-Sarda View Post
    Sardinia is European since the dawn of time, the geographical position means nothing.
    Oh, it means everything Philosophy time. Europe is primarily a geographic concept. A racial European is a person who is (at a fine scale) genetically very similar to a population which is concentrated in Europe. And in modern Europe, not yonks ago. Who lived where when Satan roamed the earth is irrelevant to modern European genetic identities.

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    Veteran Member Neon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petalpusher View Post
    That's precisely why you need to base it off Fst instead, this is the actual main postulat of Fst : migration counters drift, roughly in equal measure (check Wright's model of fst) However a lot of migration has happened in the past 5-10k so the difference between populations aren't mostly due to drift.
    Using FST is obviously a more accurate way of doing it, but we cannot use the HGs to represent the ultimate Europeans. There is no point having a skeleton on the throne, if you see what I mean.

    I think a Scot just broke your calculator.
    A barbarian outlier GEDmatch works well with averaged results but can be erratic for individuals.
    Last edited by Neon Knight; 04-23-2018 at 06:54 PM.

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    In Corpore Sardo Mens-Sarda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    It is the current positions of the components that counts. The modern Sami are concentrated in Europe and nowhere else.

    Oh, it means everything Philosophy time. Europe is primarily a geographic concept. A racial European is a person who is (at a fine scale) genetically very similar to a population which is concentrated in Europe. And in modern Europe, not yonks ago. Who lived where when Satan roamed the earth is irrelevant to modern European genetic identities.
    In this case Sardinians can be considered more Europeans than all the others, because Sardinian people is like a living fossil, the living continuation of those peoples who lived in Europe in a remote past, all "the others", are just newcomers.
    Non Auro, Sed Ferro, Recuperanda Est Patria (Not by Gold, But by Iron, Is the Nation to be Recovered) - Marcus Furius Camillus (Roman General)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    It is the current positions of the components that counts. The modern Sami are concentrated in Europe and nowhere else.
    If current positions count then please add all of North Atlantic admixture that Mestizos in Latin America score.

    These guys in Australia also tend to score quite a lot of North Atlantic, together with Oceanian / Australoid:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-GEDmatch-kits



    Siberia was a Russian colony and Russians mixed with locals, just like Latin America was an Iberian colony.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neon Knight View Post
    Using FST is obviously a more accurate way of doing it, but we cannot use the HGs to represent the ultimate Europeans. There is no point having a skeleton on the throne, if you see what I mean.
    This is almost a philosophical question, to me it's clear European means the indigenous people who live there for maybe 20-30k, we don't even know exactly but long enough. If Europe had been populated by Africans or Asians they would be the "Europeans", these HG people were the most different from both, so i don't know how we could base it on something supposed to be more European if it's either closer to African and/or Eastern Eurasians (since anything more modern is closer), that would be weird, and wrong, i think. Also for most of us except if you really go at the extreme end of the European spectrum, it is our dominant type of ancestry.

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    Veteran Member Neon Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petalpusher View Post
    This is almost a philosophical question, to me it's clear European means the indigenous people who live there for maybe 20-30k, we don't even know exactly but long enough. If Europe had been populated by Africans or Asians they would be the "Europeans", these HG people were the most different from both, so i don't know how we could base it on something supposed to be more European if it's either closer to African and/or Eastern Eurasians (since anything more modern is closer), that would be weird, and wrong, i think. Also for most of us except if you really go at the extreme end of the European spectrum, it is our dominant type of ancestry.
    I can see your point of view but it is a very academic one and we do not ordinarily think so far back in time when we identify with ancestors. Vikings/Saxons/Celts/Romans etc. are the usual references. Could Neanderthals not be considered the true Europeans?

    On the subject of inheritance from ancient populations, this was the quote about Cheddar Man:

    "Tests on the DNA of modern Britons reveal we have around 10 per cent of our DNA in common with Cheddar Man and his tribe."

    Also, there is this from the Irish DNA Atlas study:

    "The team did compare the modern group with two ancient genomes from Ireland. One came from a person who lived near Belfast during the Neolithic, around 5,000 years ago. The other was from a person who lived on Rathlin Island in the late Bronze Age, from 2000 to 1500 B.C. The scientists were hopeful they’d find genetic affinity, or relatedness, between the Bronze Age genome and modern inhabitants of the region where those bones had been found. No dice. The ancient genomes mainly served as a nice background reference to highlight variances between the modern groups."

    https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...etics-science/

    These statements appear to contradict the idea that we have inherited a lot of DNA from the ancient populations.

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