Mixed Ancestry and Determining Ethnicity

[Gwydion]

How does one ultimately determine ones ethnic affiliation or historic identity, especially if one is of mixed European ancestry? For someone interested in ancient culture, paganism, folk traditions, history, etc. how does one determine which people one should most identify with?

Let's use my own example and perhaps you could tell me how you would see it were you in my shoes:

--Overall ancestry is limited to Northwestern Europe.
--Father is almost entirely of British descent, mostly English, but the direct paternal line and surname is Scottish. That said the origin of the family and name is mostly accepted to Norse.
--My mother is German and Irish, more Irish by blood perhaps.
--My native tongue is English.

So given the above, what is most important? I tend to agree with the patriarchal view of the ancients, so emphasis would be on my father's line. Problem is Scotland is more of a Celtic nation whereas my ancestral origins are likely Norse who first settled the Western Isles. Is the ethnic origin of the nation/kingdom (Gaels) more important or the purported ancestral origins (Norse)?

Were I to be a pagan, should I be focusing on Norse/Germanic traditions or Gaelic/Celtic traditions?

Now of course I am a Yankee today, but this question arises out of again interests in ancient traditions, origins, tribal affiliation, paganism, etc.

What do you think?

[Gwydion]

I believe I read that in many societies, such as in the Balkans or in the wider Greek world of antiquity, ethnic identity was based on paternal lineage first and foremost. Thus the son of a Greek and a non-Greek growing up in Massalia or Sicily was a Greek, despite being of mixed lineage and not living in Greece. Many Chinese, who may or may not have other Asian ethnic lines and may have grown up in the West, nonetheless still see themselves as Chinese.

Language of course is also important in ethnic identity, but many modern Irish no longer speak Gaelic, and yet I assume most of them identify with the ancient Gaels rather than invading English or their continental Saxon ancestors.

I suppose for me that going by the paternal line it is a bit of a conundrum since as noted the kingdom/nation is Gaelic/Pictish and the likely origin of the family Norse. It's not that I don't see both as important and part of me, but which should receive precedence? When I read history about Norsemen fighting the Picts or Scots, who should I be rooting for?

In regards to paganism, it reminds me of two old threads I saw while lurking here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...ans-and-asatro
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...navian-symbols

I suppose they have a point. Question is, would Norse patrilineal descendants (such as in my case) be included in such an ethnic conception of paganism?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

This is only very complicated to europeans and non latin americans

[Mortimer]

If we go by genetics, I would say with PCA etc. 23andme determined me as "European" probably because of PCA. I think I look white enough and genetically I could be European but no one wants to accept me and everyone says I dont pass. And when I grew up everyone said im shitty brown and look not european and treated me as such.

[Gwydion]

This is only very complicated to europeans and non latin americans

What do you mean?

If we go by genetics, I would say with PCA etc. 23andme determined me as "European" probably because of PCA. I think I look white enough and genetically I could be European but no one wants to accept me and everyone says I dont pass. And when I grew up everyone said im shitty brown and look not european and treated me as such.[/IMG]

I was talking more about a specific tribe rather than whether one is European or not. I think for example a half-African half-Chinese would not be accepted as Chinese by most Chinese. Traditionally this was also the case in Europe or its colonial extension, eg. the Spanish Empire and its caste system.

So really my question is more intended for someone of mixed Euro heritage. Again I think the paternal origins and surname are the most vital, keeping with old patriarchal conceptions of ethnicity, but as we can see with my own case even this can be complicated.

[Mortimer]

I agrree i think im serb because of my surname and fathers line

What do you mean?



I was talking more about a specific tribe rather than whether one is European or not. I think for example a half-African half-Chinese would not be accepted as Chinese by most Chinese. Traditionally this was also the case in Europe or its colonial extension, eg. the Spanish Empire and its caste system.

So really my question is more intended for someone of mixed Euro heritage. Again I think the paternal origins and surname are the most vital, keeping with old patriarchal conceptions of ethnicity, but as we can see with my own case even this can be complicated.

[Anglojew]

How does one ultimately determine ones ethnic affiliation or historic identity, especially if one is of mixed European ancestry? For someone interested in ancient culture, paganism, folk traditions, history, etc. how does one determine which people one should most identify with?

Let's use my own example and perhaps you could tell me how you would see it were you in my shoes:

--Overall ancestry is limited to Northwestern Europe.
--Father is almost entirely of British descent, mostly English, but the direct paternal line and surname is Scottish. That said the origin of the family and name is mostly accepted to Norse.
--My mother is German and Irish, more Irish by blood perhaps.
--My native tongue is English.

So given the above, what is most important? I tend to agree with the patriarchal view of the ancients, so emphasis would be on my father's line. Problem is Scotland is more of a Celtic nation whereas my ancestral origins are likely Norse who first settled the Western Isles. Is the ethnic origin of the nation/kingdom (Gaels) more important or the purported ancestral origins (Norse)?

Were I to be a pagan, should I be focusing on Norse/Germanic traditions or Gaelic/Celtic traditions?

Now of course I am a Yankee today, but this question arises out of again interests in ancient traditions, origins, tribal affiliation, paganism, etc.

What do you think?

You're Germanic & Celtic but do a genetic test to determine other factors.

[Gwydion]

You're Germanic & Celtic but do a genetic test to determine other factors.

I plan on doing Autosomal and Y-DNA. My parents did their autosomal DNA and it seems my father plots with Southwest English, Frisians, and Dutch whereas my mother plots with Irish, Orcadians, Danes, North Germans. Somehow when I take the averages of their results, I tend to plot with Orcadians, Norwegians, West Scottish, Icelanders, Argyll, Danes.

Of course Y-DNA might give one some answers....if one is R1b-U106 it might point to Germanic over Celtic, but this itself doesn't seem absolute. If I recall there are debates as to whether the L21 present in Western Norway is of ancient origin or recent British origin, but beyond that I've seen someone with my surname come back as a DF27, typically associated with Iberians, but this subclade apparently is of Norse origin:

https://sites.google.com/site/rox2cluster/

So I guess DNA can be of use, but the question is more a philosophic one. Today many people tend to identify with all of their ancestry perhaps equally or going by percentage, whereas again it seems in more traditional and patriarchal societies ethnic identity and affiliation was determined by the father's line.

The question I suppose comes down to is the kingdom or nation of the paternal line more vital to identity, especially when considering ancient origins, or actual purported blood origin?

To use another example, let's say an Englishman of traced Norman origin with a French sounding Norman surname who also happens to be half or quarter French by blood. When he is reading about the Norman conquest, is he to identify with his Norman ancestors or the English/Anglo-Saxon nation to which he now belongs? While all of it is his history and ancestry, which should receive precedence? How about the same situation with a Hiberno-Norman or Cambro-Norman descendant?