South Slavs are Illyrians not Albanians

[Morlak]

I will never understand what is up with modern South Slavs trying so hard to prove how illyrian or native they are.

It reminds when back in the days Croats wanted to be Goths.

[Bosniensis]

If there are ancient hellenic records that say that Illyrians and Celts were the same it doesn't necessarily mean that it is true, especially when there's no genetic evidence pointing in that direction. By being the same they probably meant that they were equally seen as barbarians.

Can you provide the source of the written evidence you talk about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius




but according to Albanians (who are complete opposite of Europe and Gauls) claim THEY are Illyriians

I dont see e1b v13 people in gaul, but we know for i2a1 and i2a2

Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes:[5]

Sons
Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi
Daughters
Partho (Πάρθω) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae
Grandsons
Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians
Greatgrandsons
Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi


Triballi is a synonym for Serbs even today.

[Bosniensis]

I will never understand what is up with modern South Slavs trying so hard to prove how illyrian or native they are.

It reminds when back in the days Croats wanted to be Goths.

It is extremely important.

Ramuš Haradinaj said 1 year ago that "Niš is ancient Albanian (Illyrian) city" ...

We are presented as some kind of ALIENS here...

I can't accept "Alien" attribute.. maybe someone can.. I can't.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius




but according to Albanians (who are complete opposite of Europe and Gauls) claim THEY are Illyriians

I dont see e1b v13 people in gaul, but we know for i2a1 and i2a2

Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes:[5]

Sons
Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi
Daughters
Partho (Πάρθω) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae
Grandsons
Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians
Greatgrandsons
Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi


Triballi is a synonym for Serbs even today.

You base your claims on the Bibliotheca? A compendium of Greek myths and legends?

[Dibran]

You base your claims on the Bibliotheca? A compendium of Greek myths and legends?

His argument still falls apart considering both J2(I think) and E-V13(Germany and Hungary) were found in Central Europe as well. So even in his retarded scenario, both those haplogroups would have made their way to the South with Proto-Illyrians. He can't seem to tell the difference between I2a1*basal and I2a1b-Din Slavic. He likes to quote outdated sources of I2's former presence in South-East Europe as proof. Despite I2 being there in the mesolithic, long before Proto-Illyrians showed up. Also the most likely descendant of Balkanic I2 is I2a2a, found in trace amounts in Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs and Pomaks. He can't tell the difference between subclades because hes looking at the earliest ancestor rather than the subclade defining the particular migration pattern. He doesn't like to focus on subclades because that demolishes his entire argument. He also forgets most Roman and Greek historians grouped various tribes together, which possess non-homogenous elements at that time as well. To accept Albanians are largely descended paternally from Illyrians(regardless of what language they spoke) would dismantle the entire Serbian fantasy of Albanians as later migrations.

[Dibran]

I will never understand what is up with modern South Slavs trying so hard to prove how illyrian or native they are.

It reminds when back in the days Croats wanted to be Goths.

I actually agree with you here. Nothing wrong with being descended from Slavs. He just hates himself and is coping hard.

[Bosniensis]

You base your claims on the Bibliotheca? A compendium of Greek myths and legends?

Of course.

Greek mythology is superior source of knowledge.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

His argument still falls apart considering both J2(I think) and E-V13(Germany and Hungary) were found in Central Europe as well. So even in his retarded scenario, both those haplogroups would have made their way to the South with Proto-Illyrians. He can't seem to tell the difference between I2a1*basal and I2a1b-Din Slavic. He doesn't like to focus on subclades because that demolishes his entire argument. He also forgets most Roman and Greek historians grouped various tribes together, which possess non-homogenous elements at that time as well. To accept Albanians are largely descended paternally from Illyrians(regardless of what language they spoke) would dismantle the entire Serbian fantasy of Albanians as later migrations.

We don't know if the Illyrians really existed in the historical perspective of a single entity with a single common language, costumes and religion. There are very little historical evideces in the written form and we can only speculate most of the time.

The Illyrians could just be the cogname or the banner that multiple native balkanite tribes fell under on the Hellenic\Roman scriptures, just as we have to be careful when refering to pre-Roman Iberians: yes, they were all Iberians but there was more than 300 hundred different tribes and many had completly distinct languages, religions and costumes.

I think the most likely and reasonable theory is that no one in the Western Balkan region has exclusiveness over the so called Illyrian heritage. It predactes any modern national identity\borders that exist there nowadays. All of them, be it Serbians, Albanian, Montenegrins, etc, seem to have a common or several common ancestors that pre-date the Hellenic, Roman and Slavic incursions on the region.

[Dibran]

It is extremely important.

Ramuš Haradinaj said 1 year ago that "Niš is ancient Albanian (Illyrian) city" ...

We are presented as some kind of ALIENS here...

I can't accept "Alien" attribute.. maybe someone can.. I can't.

Nis was an ancient Illyrian/Dardanian domain. Albanians do descend paternally largely from Illyrians. However, just as much as you do not understand science, you do not understand history and cultural evolution. Albanians are a culture descended from Proto-Albanians, whom largely descend paternally from Illyrians and Dardanians. However, with passage of time cultures and peoples evolve. It was an ancient city that the ancestors of many Albanian men lived, not the other way around.

[Dibran]

We don't know if the Illyrians really existed in the historical perspective of a single entity with a single common language, costumes and religion. There are very little historical evideces in the written form and we can only speculate most of the time.

The Illyrians could just be the cogname or the banner that multiple native balkanite tribes fell under on the Hellenic\Roman scriptures, just as we have to be careful when refering to pre-Roman Iberians: yes, they were all Iberians but there was more than 300 hundred different tribes and many had completly distinct languages, religions and costumes.

I think the most likely and reasonable theory is that no one in the Western Balkan region has exclusiveness over the so called Illyrian heritage. It predactes any modern national identity\borders that exist there nowadays. All of them, be it Serbians, Albanian, Montenegrins, etc, seem to have a common or several common ancestors that pre-date the Hellenic, Roman and Slavic incursions on the region.

I speak more on paternal descent. Cultures and languages change and evolve so I agree theres no consistent direct continuance. I also agree the Romans and Greeks painted them with a broad stroke like most call everyone in the Balkans yugoslavians today because they don't tell much difference. Culturally and autosomally there is a shared umbrella of descent. However, via paternal descent, Albanians are largely descended from Proto-Illyrian Haplogroups. So, no matter how you cut it, if you took a time machine down Albanian Y-DNA it still leads back to them. That's what Bosniensis can't grasp.

The Celtic influence in Illyrians was largely in the northwest balkans. The further south they were(Albania, Kosova, Montenegro), there was a larger Hellenic overlap.