Were Celts once 30-40% of Europe's population?

[Peterski]

Doesn't the oldest R1b-M269 in Britain predate that culture?

But do you have any evidence that it was R1b-L21 and some more basal subclade of R1b-M269?

This map for example shows the frequency of basal L51* with no any further downstream SNPs:



Basal M269*:



Basal L11*:



Basal L23*:

[Aren]

But do you have any evidence that it was R1b-L21 and some more basal subclade of R1b-M269?

This map for example shows the frequency of basal L51* with no any further downstream SNPs:



Basal M269*:

My bad I meant M269+ obviously. Didn't you mention that most of the British Bell Beakers were L21?

[Peterski]

Copper and Bronze Age R1b-L21 samples:

I2457, Amesbury, England, 2480–2031 BC
I2565, Amesbury, England, 2470-2140 BC
I2447, Yarnton, England, 2400–2040 BC
I2453, West Deeping, England, 2289–2041 BC
I2568, Dryburn Bridge, Scotland, 2287–2039 BC
I3256, Cambridge, England, 2204–2029 BC
I2452, Willington, England, 2277–1920 BC
I2445, Yarnton, England, 2137–1930 BC
Rathlin1, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2026–1885 BC
Rathlin2, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2024–1741 BC
Rathlin3, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 1736–1534 BC
I3082, Sixpenny Handley, England, 1500–1390 BC
I2653, Longniddry, Scotland, 1500–1300 BC

If they were not Celts then who were they? Maybe they were linguistically like Picts, speaking some Proto-Pictish?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_language

Celticness of Pictish used to be disputed, but it was undoubtedly closely related to Celtic (even if it wasn't Celtic).

[Peterski]

(...)

What about Spiginas2, a sample from Early Bronze Age Lithuania? Was he a speaker of Proto-Baltic language?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5112422

Are you claiming that Lithuania and Latvia had swamps, or that these people were not Balts?:

1. Early Bronze Age:

Spiginas2 (1 sample), Lithuania, 2130-1750 BC, R1a-Z280>CTS1211

2. Late BA & Iron Age:

Turlojiske3 (1 sample), Lithuania, 1010–800 BC, R1a-Z92>Y4459>YP617
Kivutkalns (3 samples), Latvia, 805–230 BC, R1a-Z280>CTS1211>YP1034>Y13467

According to some theories Balts came to Lithuania and Latvia from Belarus and Russia only during the Iron Age:



^^^ If we believe this map, Latvia and Lithuania were NOT inhabited by Baltic-speakers during the Bronze Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciniec_culture

And yet, we can see that Bronze Age Latvia and Lithuania were full of R1a haplogroup (N1c has not been found).

[Peterski]

Maybe Celtic and Baltic languages expanded earlier than previously thought. Genetics > old archaeology.

Or we can claim that R1b-L21 in Bronze Age Britain was not Celtic and R1a in Bronze Age Baltic states was not Baltic.

[Gwydion]

Copper and Bronze Age R1b-L21 samples:

I2457, Amesbury, England, 2480–2031 BC
I2565, Amesbury, England, 2470-2140 BC
I2447, Yarnton, England, 2400–2040 BC
I2453, West Deeping, England, 2289–2041 BC
I2568, Dryburn Bridge, Scotland, 2287–2039 BC
I3256, Cambridge, England, 2204–2029 BC
I2452, Willington, England, 2277–1920 BC
I2445, Yarnton, England, 2137–1930 BC
Rathlin1, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2026–1885 BC
Rathlin2, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 2024–1741 BC
Rathlin3, Rathlin Island, Ireland, 1736–1534 BC
I3082, Sixpenny Handley, England, 1500–1390 BC
I2653, Longniddry, Scotland, 1500–1300 BC

If they were not Celts then who were they? Maybe they were linguistically like Picts, speaking some Proto-Pictish?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictish_language

Celticness of Pictish used to be disputed, but it was undoubtedly closely related to Celtic (even if it wasn't Celtic).

From everything I've read, it seems the Picts were undoubtedly a Celtic people...linguistically, culturally, religiously. That said they seem to have spoken a P-Celtic tongue just like Brythonic. Originally the Greeks and Romans didn't really differentiate between Britons and Caledonians who would become Picts. They became the Picts because they were the non-Romanized Britons, perhaps with lack of Latin linguistic elements, retaining certain archaisms in their language, etc.

I am no linguist or expert, but from my studies it would seem that the L21 people spoke a proto-Celtic that would develop into a Q-Celtic language like Irish and that later via influences from La Tene/Gaul/Belgae, perhaps with the introduction of U152 in the Iron Age, Brythonic was born.

[Sikeliot]

Celticness of Pictish used to be disputed, but it was undoubtedly closely related to Celtic (even if it wasn't Celtic).

Isn't Pictish a Britannic language within the Celtic family, i.e. would have been a distant cousin of Welsh, Cornish, and Breton.

[JohnSmith]

They also lived in Anatolia I believe.

[War Chef]

We had Celts in South-East Europe, who followed the Danube to it's mouth.

[Armenian Bishop]

Romans and Greeks called them Celts, but that doesn't mean that all so called Barbarians were Celts.