Is there less tangible Moorish influence in Portugal than in southern Spain and western Sicily?

[Sikeliot]

Bullshit.

That's what it says. I thought you said you didn't think Norman input had anything to do with it? Which is it?

[Damião de Góis]

Let me put it a different way. Many people who travel to parts of Andalusia or to Trapani, Agrigento in Sicily say that the "feeling" of being there gives them the impression of being close to North Africa as if that influence never died out. Not identical, but they can feel the proximity. Are you saying this is NOT true of Portugal, anywhere in Portugal?

I would have to travel to North Africa to answer that question. This way i can only answer with googling pictures.

Here is a comparison between a town in southern Portugal and a town in northern Morocco:









Do they have the same feeling?

[Tietar]

Nothing resembling couscous is eaten in Portugal? (For Spain, paella might be equivalent)

stop posting bullcrap, the Paella has nothing to do with the Moors

The origin of the paella goes back to the one of its main ingredient: the rice This one entered in Europe coming from Asia approximately in 330 a. C. And from there he made a long journey to settle in the eastern Spanish coasts. The vessel called patela, however, is older and dates from the time of the occupation of Hispania by the Roman Empire.

Container used in its preparation: The name of the paella comes from the container in which it is prepared.
Its Latin origin identifies it, the pan in Latin is patella, there are authors who identify the name of the dish with the absence of the 't' and in this way it remains: pattella. The word paella in Valencian means frying pan and arrived in Valencia, from the French at the end of the 16th century. The word paella was synonymous in Spanish with "arroz valenciano" or "arroz a la valenciana" (as a Valencian dish) from 1900. In the province of Valencia the container -paella- was the one that lent its name to the dish cooked with the mentioned utensil, because of the rhetorical reticence derived from rice in paella (or even "arroz a la paella"), not so in the province of Alicante.

http://www.clubfrance.org.mx/el-origen-de-la-paella/

[ÁGUIA]

Moor settlement in northern Portugal was scarce if one can even call it a settlement.

Spoiler!

The coup installing Abd al-Malik ibn Qatan al-Fihri as ruler in al-Andalus in early 741 had been a failsafe device. But once the news of the disaster at Bagdoura spread, a general Berber uprising in al-Andalus could no longer be prevented. In October 741, Berber garrisons north of the Douro River mutinied. They discarded their Arab commanders and took to the field, abandoning their garrison posts to assemble their own Berber rebel army around the center and march against the Andalusian Arabs in the south. Although their leaders' names have escaped us, the Andalusian Berber rebel army was organized into three columns—one to take Toledo(the main garrison city of the central march), another to aim for Córdoba (the Umayyad capital), and the third to take Algeciras, where the rebels hoped to seize the Andalusian fleet to ferry additional Berber troops from North Africa.With the frontier garrisons in the north west suddenly evacuated, the Christian king Alfonso I of Asturias could hardly believe his luck, and set about dispatching Asturian troops to seize the empty forts. With remarkable swiftness and ease the northwestern was captured, and the banks of the upper Ebro were raided by Alfonso and permanently lost to al-Andalus. The Asturians devastated several towns and villages on the banks of the Douro River, and carried off local populations from the towns and villages in the Galician-Leonese lowlands back to the mountains, creating an empty buffer zone in the Douro River valley (the Desert of the Duero) between the Asturias in the north and al-Andalus in the south. This newly emptied frontier would remain in place for the next few centuries. It is alleged that pastoral Berber mountaineers remained behind in the highlands around Astorga and León. These trapped Berber communities were called "Maragatos" by the local Christian Leonese (etymology uncertain, possibly from, "captive Moors"). Although eventually converted to Christianity, the Maragatos retained their distinctive dress, customs and lifestyle of Berber origin down to the early modern era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt

The same way Portuguese has less Arabic origin words in our lexicon in comparison with Spanish.
Less time of occupation, plus what is nowadays Portugal, the Garb was somewhat peripheral to the core of Al Andalus.
Another reason is what was the character of the Christian Reconquista "scorched land ". Each locality retaken from Moors was destroyed and the objects and constructions were burned in bonfires that burned for days.

These are the remaining principal constructions or partly credit to them from that period in Portugal.

Spoiler!

Paderne Castle


Castle of Sines



Church of Nossa senhora da Anunciação



Castle of Moors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architecture

But there are still some elements that can attest to that period. Like Algarvian chimneys, terraces, those interior courtyards, some narrow alleys etc etc. Nothing that palpable considering the 5 centuries of their presence here though.

Spoiler!

Also one can observe some moorish influences in some types of architecture due to the XIX century Neo-moorish revival that occurred in Europe like of a fascination for the exotic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooris...l_architecture

This one is from my city, they are not many, very residual phenomenon.

Spoiler!

About the Horseshoe Arch:

Spoiler!

Horseshoe arches are known from pre-Islamic Syria, where the form was used in the fourth century CE in the Baptistery of Mar Ya'qub (St. Jacob) at Nisibin. However, it was in Spain and North Africa (where it went from Spain) that horseshoe arches developed their characteristic form. Prior to the Muslim invasion of Spain, the Visigoths used them as one of their main architectural features, which may come from at least the Roman period. Some tombstones from that period have been found in the north of Spain with horseshoe arches in them, with speculation about a pre-Roman local Celtic tradition. Also, the arch of the Church of Santa Eulalia de Boveda—part of a previous Roman temple—in Lugo, points in that direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_arch

We don't have any resembling couscous here, at least that I am ware of. There are some southern dishes that are claimed to be introduced or influenced by them, the case of Açorda per example. The problem is that are many contradicting information, so it is hard to discern what is or not from them. Possibly the obvious dilution of moorish elements also contributes to that lack of precision, it's difficult to pin point exactly but of course some influence at some degree must be there. There's also some sweets like aletria introduced by them like other aliments and crops bla bla bla.

Concerning the Portuguese tiles. Tiles were brought by moors to the peninsula and entered in Portugal some centuries later after Reconquista is finished here.
In 1498 D Manuel I visits Spain and he got dazzled by the beauty and extravaganza of those moorish tiles. So he decided to copied them although being influenced aesthetically by the Gothic and contemporary thematic. Keeping their evolution till these days.

Spoiler!

Instead of extrapolate or minimize being factual (or at least trying) is better. You know, moors weren't Gods but were not subhumans either.

[Bell Beaker]

Moor settlement in northern Portugal was scarce if one can even call it a settlement.

Spoiler!

The coup installing Abd al-Malik ibn Qatan al-Fihri as ruler in al-Andalus in early 741 had been a failsafe device. But once the news of the disaster at Bagdoura spread, a general Berber uprising in al-Andalus could no longer be prevented. In October 741, Berber garrisons north of the Douro River mutinied. They discarded their Arab commanders and took to the field, abandoning their garrison posts to assemble their own Berber rebel army around the center and march against the Andalusian Arabs in the south.Although their leaders' names have escaped us, the Andalusian Berber rebel army was organized into three columns—one to take Toledo(the main garrison city of the central march), another to aim for Córdoba (the Umayyad capital), and the third to take Algeciras, where the rebels hoped to seize the Andalusian fleet to ferry additional Berber troops from North Africa.
With the frontier garrisons in the north west suddenly evacuated, the Christian king Alfonso I of Asturias could hardly believe his luck, and set about dispatching Asturian troops to seize the empty forts. With remarkable swiftness and ease the northwestern was captured, and the banks of the upper Ebro were raided by Alfonso and permanently lost to al-Andalus. The Asturians devastated several towns and villages on the banks of the Douro River, and carried off local populations from the towns and villages in the Galician-Leonese lowlands back to the mountains, creating an empty buffer zone in the Douro River valley (the Desert of the Duero) between the Asturias in the north and al-Andalus in the south. This newly emptied frontier would remain in place for the next few centuries. It is alleged that pastoral Berber mountaineers remained behind in the highlands around Astorga and León. These trapped Berber communities were called "Maragatos" by the local Christian Leonese (etymology uncertain, possibly from mauri capti, "captive Moors"). Although eventually converted to Christianity, the Maragatos retained their distinctive dress, customs and lifestyle of Berber origin down to the early modern era.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_Revolt

The same way Portuguese has less Arabic origin words in our lexicon in comparison with Spanish.
Less time of occupation, plus what is nowadays Portugal, the Garb was somewhat peripheral to the core of Al Andalus.
Another reason is what was the character of the Christian Reconquista "scorched land ". Each locality retaken from Moors was destroyed and the objects and constructions were burned in bonfires that burned for days.

These are the remaining principal constructions or partly credit to them from that period in Portugal.

Spoiler!

Paderne Castle


Castle of Sines



Church of Nossa senhora da Anunciação



Castle of Moors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moorish_architecture

But there are still some elements that can attest to that period. Like Algarvian chimneys, terraces, those interior courtyards, some narrow alleys etc etc. Nothing that palpable considering the 5 centuries of their presence here though.

Spoiler!

Also one can observe some moorish influences in some types of architecture due to the XIX century Neo-moorish revival that occurred in Europe like of a fascination for the exotic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooris...l_architecture

This one is from my city, they are not many, very residual phenomenon.

Spoiler!

About the Horseshoe Arch:

Spoiler!

Horseshoe arches are known from pre-Islamic Syria, where the form was used in the fourth century CE in the Baptistery of Mar Ya'qub (St. Jacob) at Nisibin.^[1] However, it was in Spain and North Africa (where it went from Spain) that horseshoe arches developed their characteristic form. Prior to the Muslim invasion of Spain, the Visigoths used them as one of their main architectural features, which may come from at least the Roman period. Some tombstones from that period have been found in the north of Spain with horseshoe arches in them, with speculation about a pre-Roman local Celtic tradition.^[2] Also, the arch of the Church of Santa Eulalia de Boveda—part of a previous Roman temple—in Lugo, points in that direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horseshoe_arch

We don't have any resembling couscous here, at least that I am ware of. There are some southern dishes that are claimed to be introduced or influenced by them, the case of Açorda per example. The problem is that are many contradicting information, so it is hard to discern what is or not from them. Possibly the obvious dilution of moorish elements also contributes to that lack of precision, it's difficult to pin point exactly but of course some influence at some degree must be there. There's also some sweets like aletria introduced by them like other aliments and crops bla bla bla.

Concerning the Portuguese tiles. Tiles were brought by moors to the peninsula and entered in Portugal some centuries later after Reconquista is finished here.
In 1948 D Manuel I visits Spain and he got dazzled by the beauty and extravaganza of those moorish tiles. So he decided to copied them although being influenced aesthetically by the Gothic and contemporary thematic. Keeping their evolution till these days.

Spoiler!

Instead of extrapolate or minimize being factual (or at least trying) is better. You know, moors weren't Gods but were not subhumans either.

Historiador Águia, quando vai ter um programa na RTP 2 a substituir o Hermano Saraiva?

Ou então na National Geographic ou no History a substituir os programas dos extraterrestres que aquilo tá muito mauzinho.

[Bobby Martnen]

You know nothing about a lot of things in general and of Iberian ones in particular, Sikeliot.

Please take your butthurt nonsense somewhere else.

[Bobby Martnen]

What city is this? It literally looks like it could be Cairo or Damascus.

[Bobby Martnen]

basically, they wanted to pick and choose parts of the culture to keep but without the originators of the culture themselves

Sorta like White people and Jazz in the 1920s

[Sikeliot]

What city is this? It literally looks like it could be Cairo or Damascus.

Essaouira, Morocco. When under Moorish rule, Palermo and Seville were partially modeled on Essaouira.

[ÁGUIA]

Historiador Águia, quando vai ter um programa na RTP 2 a substituir o Hermano Saraiva?

Ou então na National Geographic ou no History a substituir os programas dos extraterrestres que aquilo tá muito mauzinho.

Não me digas que o Hermano ainda bomba na dois? não vejo muita TV. De qualquer forma e independentemente da idade, tu és mais avalizado/conhecedor do que eu

HAHA Já conheces o Valiant Thor?