Try and guess where this extinct romance language was spoken

[Mens-Sarda]

.Yes, Istriot is closely related to Dalmatian, and both languages have similar diphthongs (the "Ou Uo stuff" that Bosniensis mentioned). Here's a sentence in Istriot that shows what I'm talking about:

El zì pioûn muona loû, ca la loûna da Padua.

Translation: "He's more stupid than the Padua moon", which is an idiomatic expression that Istriot speakers use when talking about a person that they consider dim-witted.

It reminds vaguely Venetian language : muona = mona = stupid

I don't understand only that loû after muona, what it means exactly??

Rising diphthongs resulting from long or stressed Latin 'o' are somewhat different though. Italian tends to use 'uo', Spanish has 'ue', and Romanian 'oa' (Lat. schola > It. scuola, Sp. escuela, Ro. scoala). Dalmatian also has 'uo' and also 'oi' in some cases, but in different places than Italian.

Sardinian in this case evolved the prosthetic vowel like Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, and French, except that Sardinian uses I instead of E.

Spanish : escuela
Catalan : escola
Portuguese : escola
French : école
Sardinian : iscola
Corsican : scola

[ovidiu]

^Interesting, yeah that is reminiscent of western or Gallo-Romance in some ways. Sometimes it's hard to separate the native Sardinian characteristics from later influences of say Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Neapolitan, etc.

Regarding Istriot (which I think is still spoken by a very small group of old people in Istria, and is different from the nearby Istro-Romanian), there are many similarities with Dalmatian... however apparently linguists can't really find a good exact place for it in the Romance continuum. Some think it's actually tied to Friulian/Ladin or Rhaeto-Romance in its roots but was influenced hugely by Venetian, the local power in the Adriatic, and to an extent Dalmatian. Or it could be an offshoot of Venetian.

[Mens-Sarda]

^Interesting, yeah that is reminiscent of western or Gallo-Romance in some ways. Sometimes it's hard to separate the native Sardinian characteristics from later influences of say Spanish, Italian, Catalan, Neapolitan, etc.

In Sardinian there are indeed some Spanish or Catalan loanwords, but very few from Italian. Nothing of Neapolitan or other Italic languages. In the case above I think that the I of "iscola" is due to a phenomenon named hypercorrection. When a vowel or consonant is added to a word where in origin it was not present, because the word looked like another word where instead the vowel or consonant was present. There are many examples in Latin with words beginning with EX that in Sardinian evolved to IS, so ancient Sardinians who spoke Vulgar Latin thought that it was correct to add an I to words beginning with S followed by another consonant (hypercorrection phenomenon).



Example :

Latin - Sardinian (evolution from EX to IS)

excutere - iscudere (to beat)
excusare - iscusare (to excuse)
excitare - ischidare (to awake)
explicare - ispricare (action of talking, mouth's movement)
extutare - istudare (to turn off, to extinguish)
excoriare - iscorzare (to skin)
excribere - iscriere (to write)

Latin - Sardinian (hypercorrection phenomenon)

schola - iscola (school)
scutum - iscudu (shield)
scala - iscala (stair)
scientia - iscientzia (science)
scire - ischire (to know)
scopula - iscobulu (broom)
sperantia - isperantzia (hope)
splenem - isprene (spleen)
stillare - istiddiare (to drip, to splash)


P.S.
This feature of the prostethic vowel is documented in Sardinian language since XI° century. Almost 350 years before the arrival of Catalans in Sardinia, 450 years before the use of Spanish as official language.

[Gartisaotenes]

It reminds vaguely Venetian language : muona = mona = stupid

Exactly.

I don't understand only that loû after muona, what it means exactly??

Loû means "he". That would be "lui" in Italian.


Istriot: El zì pioûn muona loû, ca la loûna da Padua.

Italian: E' più stupido lui, che la luna di Padova.


Do you see the similarity?


Here's another sentence:


Istriot: A zì stà loû ca uò vusioû cuseî.

Italian: E' stato lui che ha voluto così.


Source: http://digilander.libero.it/arup/dizL.htm


P.S. Thank you for writing so much about your noble language, Mens-Sarda. I've always found Sardinian fascinating.

[ovidiu]

In Sardinian there are indeed some Spanish or Catalan loanwords, but very few from Italian. Nothing of Neapolitan or other Italic languages. In the case above I think that the I of "iscola" is due to a phenomenon named hypercorrection. When a vowel or consonant is added to a word where in origin it was not present, because the word looked like another word where instead the vowel or consonant was present. There are many examples in Latin with words beginning with EX that in Sardinian evolved to IS, so ancient Sardinians who spoke Vulgar Latin thought that it was correct to add an I to words beginning with S followed by another consonant (hypercorrection phenomenon).



Example :

Latin - Sardinian (evolution from EX to IS)

excutere - iscudere (to beat)
excusare - iscusare (to excuse)
excitare - ischidare (to awake)
explicare - ispricare (action of talking, mouth's movement)
extutare - istudare (to turn off, to extinguish)
excoriare - iscorzare (to skin)
excribere - iscriere (to write)

Latin - Sardinian (hypercorrection phenomenon)

schola - iscola (school)
scutum - iscudu (shield)
scala - iscala (stair)
scientia - iscientzia (science)
scire - ischire (to know)
scopula - iscobulu (broom)
sperantia - isperantzia (hope)
splenem - isprene (spleen)
stillare - istiddiare (to drip, to splash)


P.S.
This feature of the prostethic vowel is documented in Sardinian language since XI° century. Almost 350 years before the arrival of Catalans in Sardinia, 450 years before the use of Spanish as official language.

Ah. I understand now. It makes sense.

I guess it was an independent development in Sardinia.

These same words in Italian and Romanian that began with Latin ex- just turned to s-

Lat. excutere - It. scuotere, Ro. scoate(re)
Lat. excoriare- It. scuoiare

I would assume Sardinian iscriere more likely came from Lat. scribere (not excribere/exscribere which is a less often used derivative meaning write out/copy/jot down) and would actually fit under the example of a hypercorrection - compare It. scrivere, Ro. scrie(re), Sp. escribir

Lat. scutum- It. scudo, Ro. scut
Lat. scala- It. scala, Ro. scară
Lat. scientia- It. scienza, Ro. știință
Lat. sperantia- It. speranza, Ro. speranță
Lat. scire- Ro. ști(re)

Interestingly, this last word, used often in Classical Latin, was pretty much lost in the rest of Romance, replaced by descendants of sapere.

[magyar_lány]

Voted for Corsica.

[gıulıoımpa]

Voted for Corsica.

Hehe, I tried really hard to put seemingly fitting and plausible(ish) options.
Anyways I think corsican is almost the same as Sardinian, with some minor changes.
I think Mens sarda can answer that to us

Inviato dal mio SM-G389F utilizzando Tapatalk

[Mens-Sarda]

Hehe, I tried really hard to put seemingly fitting and plausible(ish) options.
Anyways I think corsican is almost the same as Sardinian, with some minor changes.
I think Mens sarda can answer that to us

Inviato dal mio SM-G389F utilizzando Tapatalk

Well. Until Xth century more or less in Corsica and Sardinia it was spoken the same Vulgar Latin dialect, named Insular Latin, which used a more archaic vocabulary if compared to continental Latin. Around Xth century Corsica fell in the sphere of influence of the Republic of Pisa. Pisans brought to Corsica their Italic Vulgar Latin speech which merged with Insular Latin of Corsica creating the actual Corsican language, that in the basic structure is quite similar to Italian, but Corsican still keeps most of the Insular Latin vocabulary present only in Sardinian. There are many expressions identical in both languages, and unknown in Italian or other Romance languages. The overall look of Corsican language is a mix of archaic and modern, but more similar to Italian, with plurals with I or E, articles derived from "ille illa illud", while Sardinian under many grammar aspects is indeed more archaic; plurals with S, articles derived from "ipse, ipsa, ipsum", a more conservative vocabulary, verbal conjugations more similar to Latin, etc.etc.

In some areas of north-eastern Sardinia is also spoken Gallurese, a Corsican dialect arrived in Sardinia in XVth century, while in the area of Sassari-Porto Torres is spoken Sassarese or Turritano, a language similar to Corsican, but born in Sardinia because of the Pisan colonization in Porto Torres, the same elements that created Corsican language (Insular Vulgar Latin + Italic Vulgar Latin) created a language quite similar to Corsican. While in the middle between Gallurese and Sassarese, in the area around Castelsardo is spoken a dialect named Castellanese, that is a link between Gallurese and Sassarese. All these languages however remain very Italic oriented and very distinct from Sardinian. The border between the Sardinian and Gallurese/Sassarese speaking areas is sharp and clear, there aren't mixed speaking areas, it's enough to make a step out of the border and they speak a totally different language.

see maps :
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...etti_corsi.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Gallurese.png

Probably if Corsica hadn't been colonized by Pisans they would have developed a language more similar to Sardinian. Until XIXth century Corsicans also used traditional costumes nearly identical to those present in Sardinia, even the names of the various components of the traditional costumes were identical.



Some examples of Insular vocabulary common to both languages :

Corsican - Sardinian - Italian

Tandu - Tando - Allora
Aiò - Ajò (pronounce "aiò") - Andiamo
Falà - Falare - Scendere
Pisà, Pesà - Pesare - Alzarsi
Ghjàcaru - Jàgaru - Cane, Cane da caccia
Mezzanu - Mezzanu (pronounce TZ) - Scadente, di bassa qualità, sciupato
U corciu - Su cortzu - Il poveretto, la buonanima
Casgiu - Casu - Formaggio
Butìru - Buttìru - Burro
Brocciu - Brotzu - Ricotta
Veranu - Beranu - Primavera
Niellu, Nieddu - Nieddu, Nigheddu - Nero
Ulumetu - Ulumedu - Luogo con alberi di Olmo
Rustaghja - Rustagliu - Roncola
Zinzala - Zinzula (pronouce TZ) - Zanzara
Chjassu - Jassu - Sito, località

Both languages use many expressions present also in the other Romance languages, but in Corsican and Sardinian they remain more similar to Latin.

Focu - Fogu - Fuoco
Bonu - Bonu - Buono
Locu - Logu - Luogo
Sonu - Sonu - Suono
Tonu - Tronu - Tuono
Rota - Roda - Ruota
Petra - Pedra - Pietra
Mele - Mele - Miele
Fenu - Fenu - Fieno
Sonadore - Sonadore - Musicista tradizionale (Latin "sonator - sonatoris")
Cantadore - Cantadore - Cantante tradizionale (Latin "cantator - cantatoris")
Piscadore - Piscadore - Pescatore

[gıulıoımpa]

Well. Until Xth century more or less in Corsica and Sardinia it was spoken the same Vulgar Latin dialect, named Insular Latin, which used a more archaic vocabulary if compared to continental Latin. Around Xth century Corsica fell in the sphere of influence of the Republic of Pisa. Pisans brought to Corsica their Italic Vulgar Latin speech which merged with Insular Latin of Corsica creating the actual Corsican language, that in the basic structure is quite similar to Italian, but Corsican still keeps most of the Insular Latin vocabulary present only in Sardinian. There are many expressions identical in both languages, and unknown in Italian or other Romance languages. The overall look of Corsican language is a mix of archaic and modern, but more similar to Italian, with plurals with I or E, articles derived from "ille illa illud", while Sardinian under many grammar aspects is indeed more archaic; plurals with S, articles derived from "ipse, ipsa, ipsum", a more conservative vocabulary, verbal conjugations more similar to Latin, etc.etc.

In some areas of north-eastern Sardinia is also spoken Gallurese, a Corsican dialect arrived in Sardinia in XVth century, while in the area of Sassari-Porto Torres is spoken Sassarese or Turritano, a language similar to Corsican, but born in Sardinia because of the Pisan colonization in Porto Torres, the same elements that created Corsican language (Insular Vulgar Latin + Italic Vulgar Latin) created a language quite similar to Corsican. While in the middle between Gallurese and Sassarese, in the area around Castelsardo is spoken a dialect named Castellanese, that is a link between Gallurese and Sassarese. All these languages however remain very Italic oriented and very distinct from Sardinian. The border between the Sardinian and Gallurese/Sassarese speaking areas is sharp and clear, there aren't mixed speaking areas, it's enough to make a step out of the border and they speak a totally different language.

see maps :
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...etti_corsi.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped.../Gallurese.png

Probably if Corsica wasn't colonized by Pisans they would have developed a language more similar to Sardinian. Until XIXth century Corsicans also used traditional costumes nearly identical to those present in Sardinia, even the names of the various components of the traditional costumes were identical.



Some examples of Insular vocabulary common to both languages :

Corsican - Sardinian - Italian

Tandu - Tando - Allora
Aiò - Ajò (pronounce "aiò") - Andiamo
Falà - Falare - Scendere
Pisà, Pesà - Pesare - Alzarsi
Ghjàcaru - Jàgaru - Cane, Cane da caccia
Mezzanu - Mezzanu (pronounce TZ) - Scadente, di bassa qualità, sciupato
U corciu - Su cortzu - Il poveretto, la buonanima
Casgiu - Casu - Formaggio
Butìru - Buttìru - Burro
Veranu - Beranu - Primavera
Niellu, Nieddu - Nieddu, Nigheddu - Nero
Ulumetu - Ulumedu - Luogo con alberi di Olmo
Rustaghja - Rustagliu - Roncola
Zinzala - Zinzula (pronouce TZ) - Zanzara
Chjassu - Jassu - Sito, località

Both languages use many expressions present also in the other Romance languages, but in Corsican and Sardinian they remain more similar to Latin.

Focu - Fogu - Fuoco
Bonu - Bonu - Buono
Locu - Logu - Luogo
Sonu - Sonu - Suono
Tonu - Tronu - Tuono
Rota - Roda - Ruota
Petra - Pedra - Pietra
Mele - Mele - Miele
Fenu - Fenu - Fieno
Sonadore - Sonadore - Musicista tradizionale (Latin "sonator - sonatoris")
Cantadore - Cantadore - Cantante tradizionale (Latin "cantator - cantatoris")
Piscadore - Piscadore - Pescatore

Grazie della spiegazione, accuratissima. avevo visto un documentario francese sulla corsica e avrei giurato di aver sentito parlare i locali in (quello che a me suonava come) sardo.

Thank you for the explanation, very accurate. I had seen a french doc about Corsica e I could have swore what i heard was Sardinian(seemed similar if not the same to my untrained ear) being speaken by the locals

[Mens-Sarda]

The most striking difference between the two languages is probably that Sardinian uses plurals with S, and in the overall look Sardinian appears more similar to a Western Romance language. Like Spanish or Portuguese.

Below some texts taken from Wikipedia in Italian, northern Corsican (the dialect more similar to Italian) southern Corsican (more conservative), Gallurese (derived from southern Corsican), Castellanese, Sassarese/Turritano. I just added at the end a translation in Sardinian (Logudorese).

Spoiler!

Italiano

I passatempi
Sono nato a Roma e vi ho passato gli anni migliori della mia giovinezza. Ricordo, quando eravamo ragazzi, che le nostre mamme ci mandavano da soli a fare il bagno. Allora la spiaggia era piena di sabbia, senza scogli né rocce e si stava in mare delle ore fino a quando, paonazzi dal freddo poi ci andavamo a rotolare in quella sabbia bollente dal sole. Poi l'ultimo tuffo per levarci la sabbia attaccata alla pelle e ritornavamo a casa che il sole era già calato, all'ora di cena. Quando faceva buio noi ragazzi ci mandavano a fare granchi, con la luce, che serviva per mettere l'esca agli ami per pescare. Ne raccoglievamo in quantità poi in casa li mettevamo in un sacchetto chiuso in cucina. Una mattina in cui ci eravamo alzati che era ancora buio, quando siamo andati a prendere il sacchetto era vuoto e i granchi giravano per tutte le camere e c'è voluta più di mezz'ora per raccoglierli tutti.


Còrso cismontano (settentrionale, detto Corsu Cismonticu o Corsu Supranu, da supra = sopra)

I passatempi
Sò natu in Corsica è c'aghju passatu i più belli anni di a mio giuventù. M'arricordu quand'èramu zitelli chì e nostre mamme ci mandavanu soli à fà u bagnu. Tandu a piaghja era piena di rena, senza scogli né cotule é ci ne stàvamu in mare per ore fin'à quandu, viola per u freddu, dopu ci n'andavamu a vultulàcci in quella rena bullente da u sole. Po' l'ultima capiciuttata per levacci a rena attaccata à a pelle è vultavamu in casa chì u sole era digià calatu, à ora di cena. Quand'ellu facìa bughju à noi zitèlli ci mandàvanu à fà granchi, cù u lume, chì ci vulìa per innescà l'ami per a pesca. N'arricuglìamu à mandilate piene po' in casa i punìamu nu un sacchéttu chjosu in cucina. Una mane chì c'èramu arritti ch'èra sempre bughju, quandu simu andati à piglià u sacchettu ellu èra biotu è i granchi giravanu per tutte e camere è ci hè vulsuta più di méz'ora à ricoglieli tutti.


Còrso oltramontano (meridionale, detto Corsu Pumonticu o Corsu Suttanu; da sutta = sotto)

I passatempi
Sòcu natu in Còrsica e v'agghju passatu i mèddu anni di a me ghjuvintù. M'ammentu quand'érami zitéddi chì i nosci mammi ci mandàiani da par no' a fàcci u bagnu. Tandu a piaghja ghjéra piena di rèna, senza scódda né ròcchi è si staghjìa in mari ori fin'a quandu, viola da u fritu andàghjìami a vultulàcci in quidda rèna buddènti da u soli. Dapo', l'ultima capuzzina pa' livàcci a réna attaccata a à péddi e turràiami in casa chì u soli era ghjà calatu, à l'ora di cena. Quandu facìa bughju à no' zitéddi ci mandàiani à fà granci, cù a luci, chi ci vulìa par inniscà l'ami pà piscà. N'arricuglivàmi à mandili pieni è dapoi in casa i mittìami drent'à un sacchettu chjusu in cucina. Una matìna chì ci n'érami pisàti chi ghjéra sempri bughju, quandu sèmu andati à piddà u sacchéttu iddu éra biotu è i granci ghjiràiani pà tutti i càmari e ci hè vuluta più di méz'ora pà ricapizzulàlli tutti.


Gallurese (Gadduresu)

Li passatempi
Sòcu natu in Gaddura e v'agghju passatu li mèddu anni di la mè ciuintù. M'ammentu candu érami stéddi chi li nostri mammi ci mandàani da pal noi a fàcci lu bagnu. Tandu la piaghja éra piena di rèna, senza scóddi e né ròcchi e si stagghjìa in mari ori fin'a candu, biaìtti da lu fritu andaghjìami a vultulàcci in chidda rèna buddènti da lu soli. Dapoi, l'ultima capuzzina pa' bucàcci la réna attaccata a la péddi e turràami in casa chi lu soli éra ghjà calatu, a l'ora di cena. Candu facìa bugghju a noi stéddi ci mandàani a fa' granchi, cù la luci, chi vi vulìa pa' accindì(attivà) l'ami pa' piscà. N'accapitàami a mandili pieni e dapoi in casa li mittìami indrent'a un sacchéddu chjusu in cucina. Una matìna chi ci n'érami pisàti chi éra sempri lu bugghju, candu sèmu andati a piddà lu sacchéddu iddu éra bòitu e li granchi ghjràani pa' tutti li càmbari e v'è vuluta più di mez'ora pa' accapitàlli tutti.

Castellanese (Casteddanesu)

Li passatempi
Soggu naddu in Castheddu e v'agghju passaddu li megli'anni di la mè ghjuivintù. M'ammentu cand'èrami minori chi li nosthri mammi ci mandavani da pal noi a fàcci lu bagnu . Tandu la spiagghja era piena di rena, senza scogli né rocchi e si sthaggia ori finz'a candu, biàtti da lu freddu andagiami a vusthulacci in chidda rena buddendi da lu soli. Dabboi l'ulthimu cabucina pà buggacci la rena attaccadda a la pèddi e turravami in casa chi lu soli era ghjà caladdu, a l'ora di cena. Candu fagia bughju à noi piccinni ci mandavani a fà ganci, cù la lugi chi vi vulia pà inniscà l'àmi pà piscà. Ni pigliavami umbè é daboi in casa li puniami drent'a un saccheddu sarraddu in cucina. Un mangianu chi ci n'erami pisaddi chi era sempri bugghju, candu semmu andaddi à piglià lu sacchettu era boiddu é li ganci ghjiràvani pàl tutti li càmmari è v'é vuludda più di mezz'ora pà accuglinnili tutti.

Sassarese (Sassaresu in Sassarese / Tatharesu in Sardo)

Li passatempi
Soggu naddu a Sàssari e v'aggiu passaddu li megli'anni di la me' pizzinìa. M'ammentu, cand'érami minori, chi li nosthri mammi zi mandàbani a fazzi lu bagnu a la sora. Tandu l'ippiaggia era piena di rena, chena ischogliu né rocca e si isthazzìa a mogliu ori finz'a candu, biaìtti da lu freddu, andàbami a busthurazzi in chidda rena buddendi da lu sori. A dabboi l'ùlthimu cabuzzoni pa bugganni la rena appizzigadda a la peddi e turràbami a casa chi lu sori era già caraddu, a l'ora di zinà. Candu si fazìa buggiu a noi pizzinni zi mandàbani a piglià granchi, cu' la luzi chi vi vurìa pa innischà l'amu pa pischà. Ni pigliàbami umbè e dabboi in casa li punìami drentu a un sacchettu sarraddu i' la cuzina. Un manzanu chi zi n'érami pisaddi chi era ancora buggiu, candu semmu andaddi a piglià lu sacchettu eddu era bioddu e li granchi giràbani pa tutti li càmmari, e v'è vurudda più di mezz'ora pa accuglinniri tutti.

Sardo (Logudorese, Logudoresu in Sardo; Sardegna centro-settentrionale)

Sos passatempos
So nàschidu in Sardigna e b'happo passadu sos mezus annos de sa pizzinnìa mia. M'ammento, cando fìmis minores, qui mamas nostras nos mandaìan a fàghere su bagnu a sa sola. Tando s'ispiaggia fit piena de rena, chena iscoglios ne roccas e si istaìat a modde pro horas, finza a cando, biaìttos pro su frittu, andaìmis a nos boltulare in cudda rena buddende pro su sole. Dapoi s'ultimu cuccurumeddu pro nos che bogare sa rena appizzigada a sa pedde, e torraìmis a domo qui su sole fit ià faladu, a s'hora de chenare. Cando iscurigaìat, a nòis pizzinnos nos mandaìan a leare grancos, cun sa lughe qui bi querìat pro inferchire s'amu pro piscare. 'Nde leaìmis unu muntone e dapoi in domo che los ponìmis a intro de unu saccheddu serradu in coghina. Unu manzanu qui nos 'nde fìmis pesados qui fit ancora iscuru, cando semus andados a leare su saccheddu isse fit bòidu e sos grancos giraìan pro totus sas cameras, e b'est quèrfida piùs de mes'hora pro 'nde los recogliere totu.