Serbians are mostly Whiter than Iberians, Western Asians and North Caucasians.

[Damião de Góis]

I am referring to pardos claros on the Portuguese translation of Gray & Tocher's standards used by Tamagnini:


The Scottish survey includes very light hazel in medium eyes but this meaning is not made clear by Tamagnini (pardos claros can mean light brown not specifically very light hazel):

https://books.google.com/books?id=jP...lue%20&f=false

Even though the official standards are essentially the same between the two studies aside from changes arising from the translation process, functionally the standards had significant differences.

Despite explicit instructions indicating otherwise the Portuguese observers included light brown as blond hair which is the only way the results for fair hair make sense. ~20% fair hair found for Portuguese schoolchildren overall was slightly lower than the darker end of variation in Scotland and there were Portuguese districts higher that, but any real overlap at all between Scottish and Portuguese populations in fair hair is doubtful. Very light brown hair was included but what is considered near blond in Portugal is likely just regular light brown in Scotland, so the subjective component comes into play. This likely also impacted eye color with even light brown eyes or amber eyes already being considered fairly light in Portugal while clearly dark in Scotland. Since there was some ambiguity in the tables because of the inclusion of pardos claros the observers in Portuguese schools likely often included light brown eyes. Even the light category could be ambiguous because minor flecks of darker pigment might disregarded by some observers. Pure blue is very consistent between the two Tamagnini studies because it is so unmistakable.

Results for Gray & Tocher's Scottish divisions:


I'm comparing functional categories and it is possible light eyes from the first study ended up being largely comparable to medium eyes from the latter study despite intention. Only with scaled observations like in the later Tamagnini study of adults can the categories taken more or less literally. Without a standard scale to make a direct comparison to the cultural differences in perception of pigmentation may have an influence. Northern Europeans tend to have more rigid standards for light features than Southern Europeans due to differences in average pigmentation. It takes extra mental effort to realign perceptions to the descriptions of a table. This factor could account for some unexpected differences between the results Gray & Tocher and Tamagnini despite essentially the same official standards.

Now you're speculating that the study was badly measured and speculating that the mixed category most likely is made mostly of light brown. And that the second category is also not representing light eyes because the numbers don't match the other study.

So this is where the discussion ends for me, not gonna discuss your speculations and 6 pages is more than enough for me on this subject where i already have posted plenty of data.

[Melkiirs]

In overall pigmentation, the Portuguese are not similar to MENAs! 17% to 20% of their population has fair hair ( blonde or light brown ), there is also more white skin among the Portuguese than among the MENAs. The most common hair colour is brown not black and so is the most common eye colour.

Are you referring to adults or children? A Côr do Cabêlo e dos Olhos nos Estudantes dos Escolas Primárias Portuguesas Tamagnini‘s first study involved primary school students. The latter study involving adults A Pigmentação dos Portugueses found only 2.07% Fischer #9-26 which would correspond to ash-brown, golden-brown, pure ash blond, and pure golden blond of Hooton & Dupertuis. The vast majority of Portuguese adults have hair in the range of black to chestnut, no basis for around 20% fair hair.

[Oliver Tooth]

On average, indeed, Serbs are lighter than Iberians - note that there is nothing wrong to be "swarthier"; it's just a phenotypical fact

It’s just stereotype from Iberians being associated with North Africans here. They’re not darker, at least in skin color.

[Melkiirs]

It’s just stereotype from Iberians being associated with North Africans here. They’re not darker, at least in skin color.

The average unexposed skin tone for both Serbs and Iberians probably falls within the range of sallow/brunet-white/cream. Slightly darker at light brownish or swarthy may still be common but light brown skin which starts around Von Luschan #15 is much more common among Moroccans. Arab-Berbers and darker Berbers like the Shuluh are often nearly half definitively light brown unexposed skinned as Coon‘s findings indicate although Riffians were found much fairer. North Africans often tend to have darker skin than West Asian populations who are more brunet-white and less light brown skinned.

Dark here is #14+ but much of it aught to be #15+:

[sofiagris]

up to 40% light eyes in the alpine area ,slightly above 15% in Cerdeña and around 20% light eyed people around the extreme southern Italy

[sofiagris]

16% light eyes including grey-bluish ang green light is right for Portugal and very near to the apanish numbers

[sofiagris]

Hoyos Sainz's study lacks scientific value, it was carried out on a population of prisoners in different regions of Spain, some regions have 8 provinces. The study should have been carried out on each of the 50 provinces that make up the kingdom of Spain, in this way the study sample was less than 60 prisoners per province. The margin of error in this study is very high. Fortunately, there is a study carried out at the beginning of the 19th century by the Spanish Ministry of Defense, carried out by the military doctor Dr. Luis Sanchez Fernandez, using all the young people called to carry out military service in each of the 50 Spanish provinces, but of 100 thousand recruits, about 4,000 per province. Both studies cannot be compared, one with mixed prisoners in regional prisons and with 60 individuals per province with an official one carried out by the Spanish army with more than 4000 recruits studied per province.

[Melkiirs]

16% light eyes including grey-bluish ang green light is right for Portugal and very near to the apanish numbers

How do you know the percentage of green eyes? We know the percentage of Portuguese with pure light eyes (7.13%), mixed eyes (15.13%), and pure brown eyes (77.74%). Mixed includes green eyes which are just the light end of green-brown eyes but also blue-brown and grey-brown.

Here is the Saller (1931) scale Tamagnini used for A Pigmentação dos Portugueses with P being dark, M mixed, and S light:


What did Sanchez Fernandez include in his blue category? If it was pure light only Spaniards are significantly lighter eyed than Portuguese with 7.13% in Portgual by Tamagnini versus 17.555% in Spain by Sanchez Fernandez. Hoyos Sainz's figure of 10.3% blue eyes is much closer to 7.13%.

[sofiagris]

green brown eyes are mixed no light, but blue-green are light , 7% is too low for Portugal includes only pure blue, Portugal account around 15% light eyes and Spain a little bit more

[Supercomputer]

Supercomputer has been reflecting on this long after that account and even after my last 2021 account was banned:


He kept his map as is on the assumption that dark green and hazel was counted in Tamagnini’s dark eyes because it matches with ToeKneeHwin and was logical in the context of being similar to Spain by Hoyos Sainz.

The inconsistency is that dark eyes for Tamagnini did not include hazel or dark greenish but only mixtures of brown shades based on the definition I saved. Thus ~22% light eyes for Portugal included dark greenish or other hazel shades contrary to what the map says. Hoyos Sainz included so called grey-brown eyes as dark eyes as I showed but there is no explicit indication of this for Portugal with Tamagnini.

22% light eyes for Portugal includes light mixed, but not hazel (evenly mixed). Some people say light mixed eyes are hazel, others don't. It depends on where you're from. North Europeans usually don't include light mixed eyes under light.