What percentage of Spaniards and Italians people pass as typical white Americans?

[Gaska]

Go lecture yourself before insulting and saying idiocies.

"We can now add three new pieces to the puzzle of how ANE ancestry was transmitted to Europe: first by the EHG, then the Yamnaya formed by mixture between EHG and a Near Eastern related population, and then the Corded Ware who were formed by a mixture of the Yamnaya with Middle Neolithic Europeans."


"By contrast, in Russia, the later Yamnaya steppe herders of ∼3,000 BC plot between the EHG and the present-day Near East/Caucasus, suggesting a decrease of EHG ancestry during the same time period. The Late Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Germany and Hungary2 are distinct from the preceding Middle Neolithic and plot between them and the Yamnaya. This pattern is also seen in ADMIXTURE analysis (Fig. 2b, Supplementary Information section 6), which implies that the Yamnaya have ancestry from populations related to the Caucasus and South Asia that is largely absent in 38 Early or Middle Neolithic farmers but present in all 25 Late Neolithic or Bronze Age individuals."

Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5048219/

I trust more professional studies than Gaska the geneticist that said that Early European Farmers were Levantine. Remember :

You have NO idea about ​​genetics Yamnaya is CHG+EHG plus EEF, and you know what EEF means does it mean? Early Anatolian Farmers, that is you have Levantine blood even in your beloved Indo-European blood.

Dear Coon Samnium, you are making a fool of yourself, because your genetic knowledge ended in 2015 with the work of W Haak. Since then many studies related to European genetics have been published You can start by reading this:

David Anthony-A recently discovered complicating factor is a component of previously undetected Anatolian Farmer ancestry, recently found in Yamnaya genomes by Wang et al. (2018). They reported that the Anatolian Farmer component varied from about 10 to 18% of ancestral DNA across three sub-regions of the Yamnaya culture in the steppes- The proportion of farmer ancestry was lowest in the Volga-Ural steppes and highest in the Ukrainian steppes, with the North Caucasus steppes between, but the difference between the sub-regions was not statistically significant.

+ Genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus- Chun-Chao Wang et al (may 2.018)-Two years ago this work was published, and since then all the international scientific community and amateur geneticists have known it except you and feichy who still think that Yamnaya is 50% CHG and 50% EHG. Look what Wang says

Archaeogenetic studies have described the formation of Eurasian ‘steppe ancestry’ as a mixture of Eastern and Caucasus hunter-gatherers. However, it remains unclear when and where this ancestry arose and whether it was related to a horizon of cultural innovations in the 4th millennium BCE that subsequently facilitated the advance of pastoral societies likely linked to the dispersal of Indo-European languages. The steppe groups from Yamnaya and subsequent pastoralist cultures show evidence for previously undetected farmer related ancestry from different contact zones, while Steppe Maykop individuals harbour additional Upper Palaeolithic Siberian and Native American related ancestry

In parallel, Eneolithic individuals from the Samara region (5200-4000 BCE) also exhibit population mixture, specifically EHG-CHG/Iranian ancestry, a combination that forms the so-called “steppe-ancestry”. This ancestry eventually spread further west, where it contributed substantially to the ancestry of present day Europeans, and east to the Altai region as well as to South Asia. Since the spread of steppe ancestry into central Europe and the eastern steppes during the early 3rd millennium BCE (5.000-4.500 BP) was a striking migratory event in human prehistory, we also wanted to retrace the formation of the steppe ancestry profile and whether this might have been influenced by neighbouring farming groups to the west or from regions of early urbanization-

Yamnaya culture (3.300-2.400 BC)- Pontic Steppe between southern Bug, Dniester and Ural rivers. Individuals from the North Caucasian steppe associated with the Yamnaya culture appear genetically almost identical to previously reported Yamnaya individuals from Kalmykia immediately to the north, the middle Volga region, Ukraine and Hungary, and to other Bronze Age individuals from the Eurasian steppes who share the characteristic ‘steppe ancestry’ profile as a mixture of EHG and CHG/Iranian ancestry. These individuals form a tight cluster in PCA space and can be shown formally to be a mixture by significantly negative admixture f3-statistics of the form f3 (EHG, CHG; target). This also involves individuals assigned to the North Caucasus culture (2.800-2.500 BC) in the piedmont steppe of the central North Caucasus, who share the steppe ancestry profile. Individuals from the Catacomb culture in the Kuban, Caspian and piedmont steppes (2.600-2.400 BC) which succeeded the Yamnaya horizon, also show a continuation of the ‘steppe ancestry’ profile. PCA results also suggest that Yamnaya and later groups of the West Eurasian steppe carry some farmer related ancestry as they are slightly shifted towards ‘European Neolithic groups’ in PC2 compared to Eneolithic steppe. The tilting cline is also confirmed by admixture f3-statistics, which provide statistically negative values for AG3 (ANE) as one source and any Anatolian Neolithic related group as a second source.

Using qpAdm with Globular Amphora as a proximate surrogate population (assuming that a related group was the source of the Anatolian farmer-related ancestry), we estimated the contribution of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry into Yamnaya and other steppe groups. We find that Yamnaya individuals from the Volga region (Yamnaya Samara) have 13.2±2.7% and Yamnaya individuals in Hungary 17.1±4.1% Anatolian farmer-related ancestry. Replacing Globular Amphora by Iberia Chalcolithic, for instance, does not alter the results profoundly. This suggests that the source population was a mixture of Anatolian farmer-related ancestry and a minimum of 20% WHG ancestry, a profile that is shared by many Middle/Late Neolithic and Chalcolithic individuals from Europe of the 3rd millennium BCE analysed thus far.


I don't know if you will be able to understand the words of Wang et al, but surely all the people who are reading us can draw the following conclusions

1- Yamnaya Not only is CHG + EHG it is also EEF (Anatolian farmers) in a high percentage of its ancestry

2- Your genetic knowledge as well as your anthropological knowledge is a joke

3 - If you participated in any specialized genetic forum people would laugh at you for quoting Haak and think that you are a troll.

And now we could discuss whether the EEF component is related to Levant or not. Here I recommend you read the latest studies on Anatolian farmers


2- Anatolian Ceramic Farmers (ACF)- In contrast, we find that the later ACF individuals share more alleles with the early Holocene Levantines than AAF do, as shown by positive D (ACF, AAF; Natufian/Levant_N, Mbuti) ≥ 3.8 SE. Ancient Iran/Caucasus populations and contemporary South Asians do not share more alleles with ACF (|D| < 1.3 SE). Likewise, qpAdm modeling suggests that the AAF gene pool still constitutes more than 3/4 of the ancestry of ACF 2000 years later (78.7 ± 3.5%) with additional ancestry well modeled by the Neolithic Levantines (χ2p = 0.115) but not by the Neolithic Iranians (χ2p = 0.076; the model estimated infeasible negative mixture proportions)-These results suggest gene flow from the Levant to Anatolia during the early Neolithic. In turn, Levantine early farmers (Levant_Neol) that are temporally intermediate between AAF and ACF could be modeled as a two-way mixture of Natufians and AHG or AAF (18.2 ± 6.4% AHG or 21.3 ± 6.3% AAF ancestry), confirming previous reports of an Anatolian-like ancestry contributing to the Levantine Neolithic gene pool. These two distinct detected gene flows support a reciprocal genetic exchange between the Levant and Anatolia during the early stages of the transition to farming.


Do you get it? - All Europeans have Levantine blood in greater or lesser proportion, and that autosomal component entered mainland Europe not only with Anatolian farmers, but also with the steppe component for the percentage discovered in the Yamnaya culture. You have made a fool of yourself again, so I recommend that you take care of your little Nordicist brain that prevents you from recognizing that Levantine component in the European genome.

[Gaska]

Not only you are a totally ignorant but you even denies what's have been proven by several studies until now.

"In addition, if you knew some genetics, you would understand that to find out when that percentage entered the Iberian Peninsula, you have to study all the ancient genomes available, and interestingly, that small African percentage that sometimes reaches 1% in the chalcolithic remains almost constant until the arrival of the Romans. Then it is clear that the Muslim invasion (711) left hardly a genetic trail in the north and east of the peninsula while in the west except in Extremadura it does not reach 5%. This is one of the most interesting genetic discussions in Spain because nobody can explain at the moment why Galicia has a 4.4% NA if the Moors were never there."

"What game? You seem obsessed with Spain, these samples are useless because they have nothing to do with North Africa. Do not you realize that the first are Roman and Greek, the second Visigoths and the third Moors who were totally expelled from the Iberian Peninsula? You just try to confuse people with lies, you should be honest-
You remind me of Boabdil crying like a woman for not knowing how to defend Granada HA HA HA"

Denying a truth by saying that Iberians score NA because NA score Iberian

"NO, North Africans have Iberian admixture, if you do not understand it is because you are simply blinded by your own biases"

You seem to me a masochist because as you continue on this path everyone will constantly humiliate you. About this issue, I recommend reading this work, it is very interesting and largely explains the small genomic similarity between NA and Iberians

Ancient genomes from North Africa evidence prehistoric migrations to the Maghreb from both the Levant and Europe (april 2018)

The cultural and genetic similarities between Iberian and North African Neolithic traditions further reinforce the model of an Iberian migration into the Maghreb. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome haplogroups obtained for IAM (Moroccan Early Neolithic) and KEB (Moroccan Late Neolithic) suggest either a population replacement or an important genetic influx into Morocco between 5,000 and 3,000 BCE. IAM samples belong to the mtDNA haplogroups U6a and M1, both of which are associated with the back migration to Africa from Eurasia in Upper Paleolithic times and observed in Moroccan Later Stone Age individuals, whereas KEB samples belong to haplogroups K1, T2, and X2, which are prominently found in Anatolian and European Neolithic samples.

In the PCA, IAM samples are placed close to Mozabites (Berber group inhabiting the Mʾzab oases of southern Algeria), while Iberian Neolithic samples fall close to southern European populations. As suspected from the mtDNA and Y chromosome data, KEB samples do not cluster with IAM and are placed in an intermediate position between IAM and TOR. We further explored the genetic structure of these samples using the program ADMIXTURE. At K = 5, TOR is composed of the component associated with the European Early Neolithic and IAM is composed of the North African component observed in Mozabites. KEB is placed in an intermediate position, with ∼50% each of European Early Neolithic and North African ancestries

Interestingly, PCA revealed that IAM individuals are similar to North African Later Stone Age samples from the Taforalt site in Morocco, dated ∼15,000 years ago. When projected, IAM samples are halfway between Taforalt and modern North Africans, in the Levantine corner of the PCA space. Southern Iberian Neolithic individuals from TOR cluster with Sardinians and with other Anatolian and European Neolithic samples. Moreover, KEB samples are placed halfway between the IAM and Anatolian/European farmer clusters, in close proximity to Levant aDNA samples and also to Guanche samples from the indigenous population of the Canary Islands.

You understand it or I have to explain it to you? I can send you more papers on this matter, maybe you stop saying nonsense.

[Karol Klačansky]

THIS!

MILLIONS of Spaniards, A HUGE percentage of them, look more or less like these friends of you, who are not uber med like Penelope Cruz or Eros Ramazzotti, but are not Nordic either. They would not stand out in many NW European and Central European countries or among white Muricans.

White muricans, central and NW Europeans have MILLIONS of people who are more or less like them, in having similar soft/fleshy features and pigmentation.

But according to some retards on here, nearly all white Muricans and people from other countries from the Anglo/German spheres only look Tronder, Boberry, Brunn, Hallstatt Nordid, etc, and nearly all Spaniards and Italians look like Penelope Cruz (which some people bring her as example over and over, like if she is the only Spanish woman that exists), Eros Ramazzotti, Stefano Accorsi, Francesco Arca, Sergio Busquets, etc, etc, and nothing else. Is very ridiculous!

The reality is everyone around the world, even in Europe, has been influenced by Hollywood where Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas are considered as Spanish proto-types. Also, many Spaniards today are of partial Latin American ancestry, especially in cities(or they are just Latin Americans and tourist confuse them as Spaniards). My mother is an ESL teacher in the u.s and I remeber when I was 18 she had a student from Spain. He kept getting pissed off because when he would tell Americans he was Spanish they would say, "but your white?". This alone is enough to show you that many Spaniards in the u.s would just be considered as Anglo whites.

[Gota_type_]

I was just listening to this Spanish group from the 80s, which is called "El norte", and I have just realized that the guy in the middle looks like a sort of Tom Cruise, while the redhead look like a typical WASP american (a redneck for example). I could not find a better image but their names are: Carmelo López (voz, guitarra y teclados) Alberto López (voz y guitarras)
José Ignacio Izkoa

This guy doesn't look Spanish at all? Horrible example to choose

[Westbrook]

FWIW nobody knew I was foreign until I spoke when I was in Barcelona

You still don't get it, right? You start with the very stupid assumption of typical white Muricans being only those super pale and Nordic with squarish features, and I already said those super/pale Nordic and squarish faced white Muricans are NOT more common/typical than many MILLIONS of white Muricans with soft/fleshy features and with medium fair pigmentation like Mae Whitman, Mel Gibson, Tom Brady, Sally Field, Kate Bell (she is Australian, but whatever) and the likes. You're out of your mind if you really think that only 10-15% of Spaniards and Italians could blend in among common white North Americans, if we also include the second group as part of the normal white Murican spectrum.

10-15% of Spaniards and Italians sounds about right if we only count as "typical white Muricans" those super pale and Robust types like Donald Trump, Conan O'Brien, Glenn Close, Leven Rambin, etc, but if we also count people like Sally Field, Mae Whitman, Tom Brady, Mary Elizabeth Winstead as "typical white Muricans", then MOST (circa 80% or more) Spaniards and Italians could easily pass as "typical white Muricans".

I repeat it again: I live here and I know what I talk about. Every day I come across with TONS of white Muricans who are not super-pale and Nordic, but have soft/fleshy features, some shade of brown hair and medium fair pigmentation, and are not much different in features and pigmentation from TONS of Spaniards and Italians that I have met through my life. I won't buy the stupid cliche about nearly all NW Europeans looking like Trump or Conan Obrien, and nearly all Italians and Spaniards looking very med and nothing else.

You're the retard when you are not able to understand something that simple. At the end will I have to explain it with pears and apples, so that your air head can understand it? really?

And BTW, very funny how you call me Dago, when you have no Idea of how I look like, lol

[Supercomputer]

Pass as WA 80%
Pass as typical WA ~25%

[bandeirante]

The reality is everyone around the world, even in Europe, has been influenced by Hollywood where Penelope Cruz and Antonio Banderas are considered as Spanish proto-types. Also, many Spaniards today are of partial Latin American ancestry, especially in cities(or they are just Latin Americans and tourist confuse them as Spaniards). My mother is an ESL teacher in the u.s and I remeber when I was 18 she had a student from Spain. He kept getting pissed off because when he would tell Americans he was Spanish they would say, "but your white?". This alone is enough to show you that many Spaniards in the u.s would just be considered as Anglo whites.

wtf? : picard1:: picard2:

[Rocinante]

wtf? : picard1:: picard2:

He's trolling.

[Gota_type_]

wtf? : picard1:: picard2:

Many of the people you see in Madrid or Barcelona or in some other big cities can be thought as real Spaniards when in reality they are recent inmigrants from Venezuela, Colombia, Argentina or some other countries and they are castizos or some sort of mestizos, making tourists from other countries think that these venezolanos or colombians are true Spaniards when in reality they are not.

That is why some people will say "I have seen quite dark Spaniards and some of them look really latino", when in reality they are seeing real "latinos". This does not happen with ecuatorianos, peruanos or other "latino" groups that are clearly much more amerindian. So, a tourist from Germany walks in Madrid and he sees a bunch of venezuelans and he think they are Spaniards and then he thinks: "oh some Spaniards are really dark or less European", when in fact he is seeing mestizos.


For example, we have had recently a tv show in which there was 1 person that looked like an outsider and some people would think: "oh, such a dark Spaniard!". In reality, those that really know his background know that he is 50% chilean but has a normal Spain´s accent. Those that don´t know his background will keep thinking that some Spaniards look mixed. This will not happen if the son of a sirian "refugee" is born in Germany because their surnames are syirian so it will be instantly thought as a foreigner always.

It is the same with other things like the % of delinquents here. Barcelona (or even Madrid) are world-known as the capitals of pickpocketing and robberies in Europe, but what many people don´t know is that practically all of them are from inmigrant background (northafricans or romanians for example). We get the bad fame internationally, we are the ones that get robbed in our cities, but it is not something done by us.

[Samnium]

Ancient genomes from North Africa evidence prehistoric migrations to the Maghreb from both the Levant and Europe (april 2018)

The cultural and genetic similarities between Iberian and North African Neolithic traditions further reinforce the model of an Iberian migration into the Maghreb. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosome haplogroups obtained for IAM (Moroccan Early Neolithic) and KEB (Moroccan Late Neolithic) suggest either a population replacement or an important genetic influx into Morocco between 5,000 and 3,000 BCE. IAM samples belong to the mtDNA haplogroups U6a and M1, both of which are associated with the back migration to Africa from Eurasia in Upper Paleolithic times and observed in Moroccan Later Stone Age individuals, whereas KEB samples belong to haplogroups K1, T2, and X2, which are prominently found in Anatolian and European Neolithic samples.

In the PCA, IAM samples are placed close to Mozabites (Berber group inhabiting the Mʾzab oases of southern Algeria), while Iberian Neolithic samples fall close to southern European populations. As suspected from the mtDNA and Y chromosome data, KEB samples do not cluster with IAM and are placed in an intermediate position between IAM and TOR. We further explored the genetic structure of these samples using the program ADMIXTURE. At K = 5, TOR is composed of the component associated with the European Early Neolithic and IAM is composed of the North African component observed in Mozabites. KEB is placed in an intermediate position, with ∼50% each of European Early Neolithic and North African ancestries

Interestingly, PCA revealed that IAM individuals are similar to North African Later Stone Age samples from the Taforalt site in Morocco, dated ∼15,000 years ago. When projected, IAM samples are halfway between Taforalt and modern North Africans, in the Levantine corner of the PCA space. Southern Iberian Neolithic individuals from TOR cluster with Sardinians and with other Anatolian and European Neolithic samples. Moreover, KEB samples are placed halfway between the IAM and Anatolian/European farmer clusters, in close proximity to Levant aDNA samples and also to Guanche samples from the indigenous population of the Canary Islands.

You understand it or I have to explain it to you? I can send you more papers on this matter, maybe you stop saying nonsense.

Completely out of topic.

Do Spaniards score North-African because North-Africa received Iberian input during the Neolithic era ? That's not how genetics works.



"In addition, if you knew some genetics, you would understand that to find out when that percentage entered the Iberian Peninsula, you have to study all the ancient genomes available, and interestingly, that small African percentage that sometimes reaches 1% in the chalcolithic remains almost constant until the arrival of the Romans. Then it is clear that the Muslim invasion (711) left hardly a genetic trail in the north and east of the peninsula while in the west except in Extremadura it does not reach 5%. This is one of the most interesting genetic discussions in Spain because nobody can explain at the moment why Galicia has a 4.4% NA if the Moors were never there."





"Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8–12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African-related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D)."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6436108/



" Our GLOBETROTTER results suggest that amongst the six potential African populations in our study, the best match to the predominant group involved in the actual admixture event is north-west African. Moreover, admixture mainly, and perhaps almost exclusively, occurred within the earlier half of the period of Muslim rule (Fig. 5b). Within Spain, north African ancestry occurs in all groups, although levels are low in the Basque region and in a region corresponding closely to the 14th-century Crown of Aragon (compare Figs 1c, 5c). Therefore, although genetically distinct22,23, north African-like ancestry in the Basque region could be explained through genetic interactions between the Basque groups and other parts of Spain within the past 1300 years."

Perhaps surprisingly, north African ancestry does not reflect proximity to north Africa, or even regions under more extended Muslim control. The highest amounts of north African ancestry found within Iberia are in the west (11%) including in Galicia, despite the fact that the region of Galicia as it is defined today (north of the Miño river), was never under Muslim rule34 and Berber settlements north of the Douro river were abandoned by 741. This observation is consistent with previous work using Y-chromosome data11. We speculate that the pattern we see is driven by later internal migratory flows, such as between Portugal and Galicia, and this would also explain why Galicia and Portugal show indistinguishable ancestry sharing with non-Spanish groups more generally. Alternatively, it might be that these patterns reflect regional differences in patterns of settlement and integration with local peoples of north African immigrants themselves, or varying extents of the large-scale expulsion of Muslim people, which occurred post-Reconquista and especially in towns and cities10,32."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

It's not you that said that NA ancestry reached only 5% in the most "admixed" area ? To be clear : I haven't anything against "NA" admixture simply even on this subject you've shown to distort and lie about the fact.

Nassbean has gave you also other studies you can still deny. The last study was published in 2019.

I will reply later to your post about Yamnaya and EEF.