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Thread: René Descartes’ Dream Argument – How Do We Know We Are Not Dreaming?

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    Default René Descartes’ Dream Argument – How Do We Know We Are Not Dreaming?

    http://www.messagetoeagle.com/rene-d...-not-dreaming/

    Cynthia McKanzie – MessageToEagle.com – As you are reading these words right now, can you prove that you are not dreaming? Most of us will say our senses are telling us that we are awake, but can we trust our senses? Can our senses be fooling us?

    René Descartes, one of the greatest philosophers of all time, said information we receive through our senses does not necessarily have to be accurate. According to Descartes’ dream argument there are no definite signs to distinguish dream experience from waking experience.

    Born in Touraine, France, René Descartes (1596-1650) was a highly influential philosopher, mathematician, and scientist. He was dubbed Father of Modern Western Philosophy and there is no doubt that he was a great scientific thinker.

    Many of his ideas are provoking and they make us question our existence and nature of reality.

    René Descartes (1596-1650) was one of a world’s greatest-ever thinkers.

    Descartes’ Dream Hypothesis

    Descartes’ Dream Hypothesis is supported by some scientists, but also questioned by others. “Whatever I have accepted until now as most true has come to me through my senses. But occasionally I have found that they have deceived me, and it is unwise to trust completely those who have deceived us even once, “René Descarte said.

    René Descarte writes in his work Meditations on First Philosophy:

    “As if I were not a man who sleeps at night, and regularly has all the same experiences while asleep as madmen do when awake indeed sometimes even more improbable ones. How often, asleep at night, am I convinced of just such familiar events that I am here in my dressing-gown, sitting by the fire when in fact I am lying undressed in bed! Yet at the moment my eyes are certainly wide awake when I look at this piece of paper; I shake my head and it is not asleep; as I stretch out and feel my hand I do so deliberately, and I know what I am doing.

    All this would not happen with such distinctness to someone asleep. Indeed! As if I did not remember other occasions when I have been tricked by exactly similar thoughts while asleep! As I think about this more carefully, I see plainly that there are never any sure signs by means of which being awake can be distinguished from being asleep. The result is that I begin to feel dazed, and this very feeling only reinforces the notion that I may be asleep.”


    Descartes means that dreams cannot be distinguished from being awake because we often have these kinds of experiences when we dream.

    People who dream do not realize they are dreaming, unless they experience a lucid dream, a hybrid state between sleeping and being awake. It is called lucid dreaming and it can be a somewhat awkward experience.


    Descartes suggested we cannot determine whether we dream or are awake.

    During lucid dreaming, you can take sometimes control of your dreams and perform various actions. These people are aware of that they are dreaming.

    The question of dream has occupied the minds of many philosophers, such as for example Plato and Aristotle who have wondered whether one could actually be dreaming constantly, instead of being in waking reality. Is life a dream perhaps?

    Is Knowledge Gained Through Our Senses Or Application Of Reason?

    Modern scientists have determined that humans can have between 9 to 21 senses in total! The idea that humans have only five sense is a pure myth. Aristotle (384 BC – 322 BC), ancient Greek philosopher and scientist is credited with the traditional classification of the five sense organs: sight, smell, taste, touch, and hearing. Aristotle was wrong, but the myth of five senses persists.

    So, if we have so many senses is it possible that they are all deceiving us? Some scholars have suggested Descartes’ dream argument may have been more convincing in the past. There is also a theory that states we only see glimpses of reality because we live in a conceptual prison.

    A still widely debated question is how we gain knowledge. Some argue knowledge is gained through our senses, but Descartes who mistrusted the information received through the senses, believed that knowledge is acquired through the application of pure reason.

    Did Descartes Contradict Himself?

    One of the most famous statements made by Descartes is the phrase:

    Cogito ergo sum – “I think therefore I am”.

    According to Descartes, the act of thinking offers a proof of individual human existence. All thought must have a source and there must be an “I” that exists to do the thinking.

    According to Descartes theory we cannot distinguish being awake from dreaming. But if our thoughts determine our existence, then it’s a contradiction because according to that belief, a person would either think he is awake, and therefore be awake simply because he thinks himself to be awake or vice versa; be dreaming because he believes he is dreaming.


    Descartes said that the act of thinking offers a proof of individual human existence.

    Some philosophers have tried to refute Descartes’s account of the dream argument by saying you cannot experience pain in dreams. However, scientific studies show pain can in fact occur in dreams. Ernest Sosa, an American philosopher said that “in dreaming we do not really believe; we only make-believe.” Those who disagree with Sosa’s statement say we cannot determine whether our beliefs in waking life are truly beliefs and not imaginings, like in a dream, we are still unable to tell whether we are awake or dreaming.

    After so many years, it is clear that Descartes’ Dream Argument is still open to interpretation and debate, and the question remains unanswered – How do we know we are not dreaming?

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    The European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato philosophy..

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    Quote Originally Posted by renaissance12 View Post
    The European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato philosophy..
    Interesting, maybe Descartes had some influence and inspiration from Plato regarding this! Though of course I believe Descartes gave it the most serious attention out of all the major western philosophers.

    From Wikipedia:
    While one dreams, one does not normally realize one is dreaming. This has led philosophers to wonder whether it is possible for one ever to be certain, at any given point in time, that one is not in fact dreaming, or whether indeed it could be possible one to remain in a perpetual dream state and never experience the reality of wakefulness at all.[citation needed]

    In the West, this philosophical puzzle was referred to by Plato (Theaetetus 158b-d) and Aristotle (Metaphysics 1011a6). Having received serious attention in René Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy, the dream argument has become one of the most prominent skeptical hypotheses.[citation needed]

    This type of argument is sometimes referred to as the "Zhuangzi paradox":

    He who dreams of drinking wine may weep when morning comes; he who dreams of weeping may in the morning go off to hunt. While he is dreaming he does not know it is a dream, and in his dream he may even try to interpret a dream. Only after he wakes does he know it was a dream. And someday there will be a great awakening when we know that this is all a great dream. Yet the stupid believe they are awake, busily and brightly assuming they understand things, calling this man ruler, that one herdsman—how dense! Confucius and you are both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too. Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. Yet, after ten thousand generations, a great sage may appear who will know their meaning, and it will still be as though he appeared with astonishing speed.[1]

    One of the first philosophers to posit the dream argument formally was the Yogachara philosopher Vasubandhu (4th to 5th century C.E.) in his "Twenty verses on appearance only."

    The dream argument came to feature prominently in Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhist philosophy. Some schools of thought (e.g., Dzogchen) consider perceived reality to be literally unreal. As Chögyal Namkhai Norbu puts it: "In a real sense, all the visions that we see in our lifetime are like a big dream . . . ."[2] In this context, the term 'visions' denotes not only visual perceptions, but also appearances perceived through all senses, including sounds, smells, tastes, and tactile sensations, and operations on perceived mental objects.

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    Anybody who ever took psychedelics can understand where descartes comes from. You never really know when something is reality or just what your brain makes you think reality is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheffar View Post
    Anybody who ever took psychedelics can understand where descartes comes from. You never really know when something is reality or just what your brain makes you think reality is.
    It gets me wondering if Descartes ever did some dope during his lifetime haha
    Last edited by Iloko; 05-26-2018 at 05:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Asheffar View Post
    Anybody who ever took psychedelics can understand where descartes comes from. You never really know when something is reality or just what your brain makes you think reality is.
    This.
    After having taken marijuana a few times, I can say that everything we percieve is just a filtered version of reality.
    Therefor we never even get to the "reality" because our brain first processes a fraction of the information that is actually there.

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    It is simple, if you ask yourself that question it is because you are dreaming with 100% certainty, because this question is never asked in a lucid state.

    You just have to remember this rule, and if at any given time you ask yourself: is this a dream or is it real?, you should automatically know that you are dreaming and you can jump out the window without fear, and fly freely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luca View Post
    This.
    After having taken marijuana a few times, I can say that everything we percieve is just a filtered version of reality.
    Therefor we never even get to the "reality" because our brain first processes a fraction of the information that is actually there.
    Our brains cant percieve reality. Its like trying to see an atom with your eyes only.

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