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Were the Veneti actually Pre-Slavs/Balts?
Interesting subject for discussion. We know that Jordanes applies the term Venedi/Venti as the umbrella term for the Sclavenoi of the 5th-7th Centirues.
"Among the Byzantine authors, the Gothic author Jordanes in his work Getica (written in 550 or 551 AD).[12] describes the Veneti as a "populous nation" whose dwellings begin at the sources of the Vistula and occupy "a great expanse of land." He describes them as the ancestors also of the Sclavenes (a people who appeared on the Byzantine frontier in the early 6th century and who are believed to have been the early Southern Slavs) and of the Antes. Specifically, he states that the Slavs and the Antes used to be called the Veneti but are now "chiefly" (though, by implication, not exclusively) called Slavs and Antes. He places the Slavs north of a line from the Dniestr to Lake Musianus the location of which is unclear but which has been variously identified with Lake Constance, the Tisa-Danube marshes or the Danube delta. He places the Antes to the east of the Slavs."
As a matter of fact, Jordanes is the only author to make the connection of the Veneti/Venedi with the Sclavenes.
"Jordanes is the only author to explicitly associate the Veneti with what appear to have been Slavs and Antes, the Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 3rd-4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi on the northern bank of the Danube somewhat upstream of its mouth, and the Venadi Sarmatae along the Baltic coast."
Another issue is the fact that Veneti were identified as a coastal peoples, of which Proto-Slavs(supposedly) had no maritime vocabulary. Making such a connection problematic.
"It has not been shown that either the original Veneti or the Slavs themselves used the ethnonym Veneti to describe their ethnos. Of course, other peoples, e.g. the Germans (called so first by the Romans), did not have a name for themselves other than localized tribal names.
"Considering Ptolemy's Ouenedai and their location along the Baltic sea, a German linguist, Alexander M. Schenker, asserts that the vocabulary of the Slavic languages shows no evidence that the early Slavs were exposed to the sea. Schenker claims that Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology and further claims it even lacked a word for amber (but see "jantar", whose etymology is unclear, and Polish "glaz" as in 'stone' or 'rock') which was the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. Based on this belief, and the fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic Sea as the "Venedic" Bay, Schenker decides against a possible identification of the Veneti of Ptolemy's times, with today's Slavs.[23] According to Gołąb, Schenker's conclusion is supported by the fact that to the east of the Venedae, Ptolemy mentions two further tribes called Stavanoi (Σταυανοί) and Souobenoi (Σουοβενοι), both of which have been interpreted as possibly the oldest historical attestations of at least some Slavs."
We also have another issue. The Veneti are mentioned on the Vistula by Tacitus as early as 98AD, long before the Slavic tribes were pushed westwards:
Sarmatian Veneti in Tacitus’ Germania (about 98 A.D.)
The relevant parts of Tacitus’ account begin with the discussion of several tribes, some of whom are clearly described by the author as non-Germanic (chapter 43). Tacitus writes:
“Nor less powerful are the several people beyond them [Nariscans, Marcomanians and Quadians]; namely, the Marsignians, the Gothinians (?), the Osians and the Burians, who altogether enclose/follow the Marcomanians and Quadians behind. Of those, the Marsignians and the Burians in speech and dress resemble the Suevians. From the Gallic language spoken by the Gothinians, and from that of Pannonia by the Osians, it is manifest that neither of these people are Germans; as it is also from their bearing to pay tribute. Upon them as upon aliens their tribute is imposed, partly by the Sarmatians, partly by the Quadians. The Gothinians, to heighten their disgrace, are forced to labor in the iron mines. By all these several nations but little level country is possessed: they are seated amongst forests, and upon the ridges and declivities of mountains. For, Suevia is parted by a continual ridge of mountains; beyond which, live many distinct [other] nations. Of these the Lygians are most numerous and extensive, and spread into several communities. It will suffice to mention the most puissant; even the Arians (?), Helvicones, Manimians; Elysians and Naharvalians.”
In chapter 46 it states:
“Here Suevia ends. I do not know whether to class the tribes of the Peucini, Venedi, and Fenni with the Germans or with the Sarmatians. The Peucini, however, who are sometimes called Bastarnae, are like Germans in their language, manner of life, and mode of settlement and habitation. Squalor is universal among them and their nobles are indolent. Mixed marriages are giving them something of the repulsive appearance of the Sarmatians.”
“The Venedi have adopted many Sarmatian habits; for their plundering forays take them over all the wooded and mountainous highlands that lie between the Peucini and the Fenni. Nevertheless, they are on the whole to be classed as Germans; for they have settled homes, carry shields, and are fond of traveling – and traveling fast – on foot, differing in all these respects from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback.”
the same “Veneti” passage has been translated in slightly different ways. The above translation is Harold Mattingly’s. That was a 1948 translation later used by Penguin in its Germania.
The same from Thomas Gordon’s 18th century translation:
“Whether amongst the Sarmatians or the Germans I ought to account the Peucinians, the Venedians, and the Fennians, is what I cannot determine; though the Peucinians, whom some call Basstarnians, speak the same language with the Germans, use the same attire, build like them, and live like them, in that dirtiness and sloth so common to all. Somewhat they are corrupted into the fashion of the Sarmatians by the inter-marriages of the principal sort with that nation: from whence [the Sarmatians] the Venedians have derived very many of their customs and a great resemblance. For they are continually traversing and infesting with robberies all the forests and mountains lying between the Peucinians and Fennians. Yet they are rather reckoned amongst the Germans, for that they have fixed houses, and carry shields, and prefer travelling on foot, and excel in swiftness.”
The same from the Church/Brodribb translation:
“As to the tribes of the Peucini, Veneti, and Fenni I am in doubt whether I should class them with the Germans or the Sarmatć, although indeed the Peucini called by some Bastarnć, are like Germans in their language, mode of life, and in the permanence of their settlements. They all live in filth and sloth, and by the intermarriages of the chiefs they are becoming in some degree debased into a resemblance to the Sarmatć. The Veneti have borrowed largely from the Sarmatian character; in their plundering expeditions they roam over the whole extent of forest and mountain between the Peucini and Fenni. They are however to be rather referred to the German race, for they have fixed habitations carry shields, and delight in strength and fleetness of foot, thus presenting a complete contrast to the Sarmatć, who live in waggons and on horseback.”
Fastforward to the 5th-7th century Slavs, whom most agree are descended from the Kiev Culture as current evidence would seem to suggest:
In the region identified by Ptolemy and Pliny, east of the Vistula and adjoining the Baltic, there was an Iron Age culture, known to archaeologists as the West Baltic Cairns Culture or West Baltic Barrow Culture, shown coloured violet on the map given here. The culture is associated with the Proto-Balts, who kept this area for almost two thousand years, avoiding adoption of new ideas from their neighbours. These herders lived in small settlements or in little lake dwellings built on artificial islands made of several layers of wooden logs attached by stakes. Their metals were imported, and their dead were cremated and put in urns covered by small mounds.
In the Post-War era Polish archaeologists generally interpreted the Veneti as the possible bearers of the Pomeranian culture, an Iron Age archaeological culture in Poland, including, to the west of the Vistula. Considering the lack of M458 ADNA pre 500AD, it is a likely possibility that they practiced cremation, and perhaps were Proto-Balts.
Balts also appear to be some of the last converts into Christianity, upholding pagan customs fairy late into the middle ages.
This could explain why M458 radiates out of Poland/Belarus, and fades out Eastward and is found minimally in most other Slavs outside of West Slavs, whom likely spread it mostly once assimilated by the Slavic culture in their westward expansion.
Before anyone suggests that Balts have very little M458 and mostly Z280, I would tell them that Z280 is Balto-Slavic where M458 could be Proto-Baltic. Also look back into geographical maps pre-slavic migration, where much of Belarus, and Part of Poland was under the umbrella of Baltic tribes. With the Vistula Veneti at the westernmost extent. This could have easily been the heartland of M458, being absorbed into the Slavic tribes during the migration period. Prior of which they were eastern and southeastern neighbors.
Considering Tactius early mention of Veneti prior to the Slavic migration, and the fact it is only Jordanes who makes a loose connection between them and Slavs, not forgetting the evidence pointing to their origin from the Kiev culture, I think it is quite possible M458 was proto-Baltic and therefore a lineage that may have expanded earlier, minimally with the Goths.
Veneti had been conquered by the Goths under Ermanaric. Some of which could have expanded with his campaigns into the Balkans. One needs to try and reconcile these contradicting factors when assigning the Veneti to the Sclavens, when they merely could have been an ingredient in their ethnogenesis.
Another thing to consider. Perhaps Kiev Culture was predominantly I2a1b/Z280. Modern distributions seem to suggests M458 plays a minimal role in the overall migration patterns. M458 seems to radiate mostly in Central Europe, and Western Slavs.
No flame wars. No bias. Some things to consider.
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