Greek Thessalian tribe/Karagounides

[MandM]

Arent they vlah? Have a friend in greece and his GF is karagounides

[hecate]

Arent they vlah? Have a friend in greece and his GF is karagounides

They are probably mixed with the rest of greeks

[xripkan]

Awesome thread! I grew up there and am a mix of these native people!

Do you have gedmatch results? Could you post your Eurogenes K13?

[MandM]

They are probably mixed with the rest of greeks

yes by now they probably are, but there origin is vlah, now if vlah is ancient greek people or other paleobalkan thats up for debatte, by greek friends say that you can hear that they are Karagounides by there greek dialect, what do you say?

[hecate]

yes by now they probably are, but there origin is vlah, now if vlah is ancient greek people or other paleobalkan thats up for debatte, by greek friends say that you can hear that they are Karagounides by there greek dialect, what do you say?

Vlachs probably have palaeo-balkan and ancient greek ancestry. Now people are more mixed ,especially in big cities ,but in villages too.
I never met Karagounides ,but old people are more likely to speak with distinct accents .

[Vlach-Karag-Sarakats]

I'm not sure what the point of your argument is and why you keep trying to make one when you are clearly misinformed on this. I honestly don't blame you because you probably aren't E-V13 and so haven't had the motivation to objectively look into this. Regardless here is the latest things we know:



Yes E-V13 didn't peak in areas where Neolithic farmers reached and in the far north where the I haplogroup and the Hunter Gatherers were. The reason why this map is a little misleading is because it uses current E-V13 distribution. The current distribution around the Balkans is less basal than the E-V13 found in Germany,Czech, Slovakia and Poland. This is why I say you are misinformed, according to Eupedia and the most recent anthropological studies:

"The oldest clades of E-V13 are most common around Germany, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Poland. I believe that E-V13 could have been a lineage of the Cucuteni-Trypillian people, which was assimilated by Yamna people just before their expansion westward. This would also have been the case of some G2a lineages (Z1816, L13 and L1264 subclades). Some of these lineages (both G2a and E-V13) remained in the Steppe and were taken east by the Proto-Indo-Iranians and to Greece by the Proto-Mycenaeans. Thousands of years of Steppe migrations would have brought more E-V13 from the Steppe to the Balkans." (Source: Eupedia)

"For many years the vast majority of academics have assumed that E-V13 and other E1b1b lineages came to the Balkans from the southern Levant via Anatolia during the Neolithic, and that the high frequency of E-V13 was caused by a founder effect among the colonisers. This theory has it that E1b1b people were associated with the development of Neolithic lifestyle and the advent of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and its earliest diffusion to Southeast Europe (Thessalian Neolithic) and Mediterranean Europe (Cardium Pottery culture). The testing of ancient DNA from the Natufian culture (Mesolithic Levant) and Pre-Pottery Neolithic Levant confirmed a high incidence of haplogroup E1b1b in that region. However, out of 69 Y-DNA samples tested from Neolithic Europe, only two belonged to that haplogroup: one E-M78 from the Sopot culture in Hungary (5000-4800 BCE), another E-M78 (c. 5000 BCE), possibly E-V13, from north-east Spain, and a E-L618 from Zemunica cave near Split in Croatia from 5500 BCE (Fernandes et al., 2016). Whether these E-M78 samples came with Neolithic farmers from the Near East or were already present among Mesolithic Europeans is unclear at present. But in any case E-V13 was definitely not the major Neolithic European lineage it was once alleged to be." (Source: Eupedia)

"Nowadays E-V13 is the only Mediterranean haplogroup consistently found throughout Europe, even in Norway, Sweden, Finland and Baltic countries, which are conspicuous by the absence of other Neolithic haplogroups like G2a (bar the Indo-European G2a-Z1815), J1 and T (except in Estonia). However, since G2a is the only lineage that was consistently found in all Neolithic sites tested to date in Europe, the absence of Neolithic G2a lineages from Scandinavia and the Baltic implies that no Neolithic lineage survives there, and consequently E-V13 does not date from the Neolithic in the region." (Source: Eupedia)

"This data suggests that the fate of E-V13 was linked to the elite dominance of Bronze Age society. The geographic distribution of the six main branches show that E-V13 quickly spread to all parts of Europe, but was especially common in Central Europe. The only Bronze Age migration that could account for such a fast and far-reaching dispersal is that of the Proto-Indo-Europeans. At present the most consistent explanation is that E-V13 developed from E-M78 in Central or Eastern Europe during the Neolithic period, and was assimilated by the R1a and R1b Proto-Indo-Europeans around the time that they were leaving the Pontic Steppe to invade the rest of Europe." (Source: Eupedia)

"What is surprising with E-V13 is that it is as common in R1a-dominant as in R1b-dominant countries. R1a Indo-European tribes are associated with the Corded Ware culture, which spanned across Northeast Europe, Scandinavia and the northern half of Central Europe. R1b tribes invaded the Balkans, the southern half of Central Europe, and joined up with Corded Ware people in what is now Germany, the Czech Republic and western Poland. If E-V13 was found among both groups, it would have needed to be either assimilated in the Pontic Steppe or very near from it (say, in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, around western Ukraine, Moldova and Romania), or at the junction between the two groups in central Europe (e.g. around the Czech Republic)." (Source: Eupedia)

"The distribution and age of E-V13 clades in central and western Europe are consistent with a dispersal by Hallstatt and La Tène Celts, Italic tribes (including a Roman redistribution) and the later influx of Germanic tribes, particularly the Goths, who may have assimilated additional Proto-Slavic E-V13 lineages in East Germany, Poland and Ukraine before entering the Roman Empire. (=> see also the discussions Was E-V13 a major lineage of Hallstatt Celts and Italics? and Ancient East, West and North Germanics had different Y-DNA lineages)." (Source: Eupedia)

"The eastern advance of the Corded Ware culture eventually gave rise to the Sintashta culture in the Ural region, which is the ancestral culture of the Indo-Iranian branch of Indo-Europeans. E-V13's presence in this culture would explain why modern Iranians and Kurds possess E-V13, in addition to R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103. E-V13 has been found as far away as central Siberia, near the Altai, a region also known to have been settled by Bronze Age Indo-Europeans." (Source: Eupedia)

"An Indo-European dispersal of V13 subclades would not only explain why E-V13 is present in places like Finland, northwest Russia or Siberia, where Neolithic farmers had a negligible impact, but also why E-V13 is so conspicuously lacking from the Basque country and (central) Sardinia, the two regions of Europe with the highest Neolithic ancestry. Sardinia is also the only part of Europe where Bronze Age Steppe ancestry is virtually absent. The low percentage of E-V13 is coastal Sardinia would be better explained by more recent settlements on the island by the Romans, or even the Goths, who also settled in Sardinia." (Source: Eupedia)

"The small presence of E-V13 in the Near East could be better explained by the extremely long Greek presence in the eastern Mediterranean from the time of Alexander the Great until the end of the Byzantine domination over the region during the Middle Ages. " (Source: Eupedia)

"The absence of E-V13 from Central Anatolia does not concord with a diffusion linked to Neolithic agriculture. There is clearly a radiation from the Greece (where E-V13 makes up approximately 30% of the paternal lineages) to the East Mediterranean (where the frequency drops to under 5%)." (Source: Eupedia)

So by now you are probably thinking: okay sure this tells us how E-V13 migrated within Europe and it pretty much discredits the idea that they were the main neolithic farmer expansion. Indeed, but they could be a later arrival of farmers, after the main neolithic expansion and before the Indo-European expansion. Obviously we can agree that is the time span where they would have migrated into Europe but we don't know if they were farmers or goat herders. In my opinion they were most likely herders because of how easily they were assimilated into PIE but that's just my guess based on the readings I've done and I haven't seen it supported or discredited anywhere. So let's investigate what happened before their arrival into Europe.

"E-V13 came to Europe from Western Asia and diffused from the Balkans into Europe: "As to a western Asia-Europe connection, our data suggest that western Asians carrying E-V13 may have reached the Balkans anytime after 17.0 ky ago, but expanded into Europe not earlier than 5.3 ky ago." This sub-haplogroup makes the majority of European E-M78 (and indeed all E) Y chromosomes." (source: Molecular dissection of the Y chromosome haplogroup E-M78 (E3b1a): a posteriori evaluation of a microsatellite-network-based approach through six new biallelic markers. Cruciani F, La Fratta R, Torroni A, Underhill PA, Scozzari R.)

"Haplogroup E would appear to have arisen in Northeast Africa based on the concentration and variety of E subclades in that area today. But the fact that Haplogroup E is closely linked with Haplogroup D, which is not found in Africa, leaves open the possibility that E first arose in the Near or Middle East and was subsequently carried into Africa by a back migration [ http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpE08.html Y-DNA Haplogroup E and its Subclades - 2008 ] . Indeed, geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer theorizes that early humans first (successfully) left Africa across the mouth of the Red Sea, between Ethiopia and Yemen [ http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/ ] . This further suggests that, if haplogroup DE first crossed over to Yemen, D carried on to southeast Asia, while E stayed back in, or near, Arabia"

So all in all, we can agree that E-V13 has the most recent ancestor from North-East Africa/ South Levant than any of the other European Y-DNA haplogroups. That doesn't mean that it is any less European since all of the haplogroups originated from the Fertile crescent and those areas but even earlier came out of Africa. E-V13 parent was just in the general fertile crescent area longer rather than go around the black sea and into Europe like other haplogroups. E-V13 was neither African nor non white. It is Wholly European based on presence/evolution in Europe and skin colour.



Hopefully the following maps will also help you consolidate all of the information I just gave you:







So yea I hope that helps you understand a little bit more about the origins of E-V13 and some of the unknowns about it. Hopefully you won't make misleading, mean-spirited, or ignorant remarks about "E-V13 is AfRiCaN" like many pseudointelectuals on forums like to do

[Dorian]

It's unknown what their deep origins are but they aren't vlachs , this was added on wiki by some romanian.There's two tribes with the same name ,one is from central-west Greece which are Arvanites+Vlachs and those on Thessaly ,different people.

The pics are from Karagounian villagers , those in cities will be mixed to some extent.

Btw by green eyes I also meant hazel ,didn't know of the term back then.

[xripkan]

snip

Do you know your exact clade under E-V13? I am interested in learning more about the genetics of Sarakatsani, Vlach and Karagkounides. Do you have any autosomal results? Could you post your Gedmatch?

[Vlach-Karag-Sarakats]

Do you know your exact clade under E-V13? I am interested in learning more about the genetics of Sarakatsani, Vlach and Karagkounides. Do you have any autosomal results? Could you post your Gedmatch?

I dont have GEDmatch. From what I saw they dont have enough reference populations and also I didn't feel safe after the last incident lol. I think 23andMe is the most accurate for the balkans tbh because it highlights the exact regions where the Vlachs, karagkounides and sarakatsani have traditionally migrated within for the past thousand years since at least 11th century. I also provide my myFTDNA results. I also dont have complete YDNA results but I think I will be getting a test done in the future when prices are more reasonable haha. To give context I know the villages of all my great grandparents and some great grandparents. My great grandma spoke vlach and taught me some. My highest percent (50%) is karagkounis and 25% of the other two. But I identify with my vlach side quite a bit because of patrilineal inheritance.

Screenshot_2020-10-25 Ancestry Composition - 23andMe.png
Screenshot_2020-10-25 Greek Balkan Population Report - 23andMe.png
Screenshot_2020-10-25 Greek Balkan Population Report 2- 23andMe.png
sScreenshot_2020-10-25 Greek Balkan Population Report - 23andMe.png
ssScreenshot_2020-10-25 Greek Balkan Population Report - 23andMe.png
Screenshot_2020-10-25 myFTDNA - myOrigins.png

[Hapanuwa]

Karagoun(ides) = Karagün?