Large study on Christianity in Western Europe

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

That's exactly what it was, in my opinion.

The newspaper did an investigative study and found the leaders of the "Revival" to have been frauds. This fact traumatized a lot of folks who were followers of it. Some of them continue to be in denial to this day.

Sometimes I think of becoming a cult leader cuz you get to bang lots of chicks and people hang on your every word but more importantly you get to bang lots of chicks.

I'm pretty good at making profound but vague statements on the spot.

Here is one I just thought of now: One eye open and one eye shut will not keep the fox from making a den in the chicken coop.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. I made it up just now but it's hella profound.

A revealing documentary.

[Loki]

I could write a book about my experiences of it. It was all I did for three years. I also did the Pacesetters Bible Course which was associated with it (Brownsville School of Ministry came later, which many of my friends attended)...my church youth group was HEAVILY involved.

Steve Hill laid hands on me a few times and nothing happened :/ One friend of mine had a miraculous healing, and I saw a lot of the speaking in tongues stuff going on among my friends.

I could talk a lot about everything that happened, but that would be too much for this thread.

Interesting, how you describe it, and how you reckon it was mass hysteria.

Of course I've never been to Brownsville, so I can't comment on that. I can only tell you that my experiences had nothing to do with mass hysteria at all... and was very genuine.

We should not allow fake experiences and hysterias to take away from the genuine article that is undeniable...

At the end of the day, it's not about who lays hands on you... it's about your own relationship with God. And it's about what happens on the inside of you first of all, not what can outwardly be seen by others.

[Loki]

That's exactly what it was, in my opinion.

The newspaper did an investigative study and found the leaders of the "Revival" to have been frauds. This fact traumatized a lot of folks who were followers of it. Some of them continue to be in denial to this day.

Anyway, sorry for taking the thread off track. It seemed relevant. I'm sure there are people who genuinely experience the fruits of the Spirit, but in this case, that's not what was going on.

I also heard that the so-called Brownsville Revival was fraudulent. Having said that, no doubt some people there might have had genuine experiences, because God will meet you in any circumstance, if you are fixed on him.. regardless of where you are.

[Morena]

I also heard that the so-called Brownsville Revival was fraudulent. Having said that, no doubt some people there might have had genuine experiences, because God will meet you in any circumstance, if you are fixed on him.. regardless of where you are.

I can agree with this, but I'm very careful with the movement because the Bible admonishes people to speak in order, with an interpreter, and without chaos. God is not the author of chaos/disorder is a new testament paraphrase. just be careful. I stay away from movements that are based on emotion. More worrying is the fact that a lot of these churches will throw out parts of the bible they don't like, and many of them have women preachers.

Yes, I know a lot of you out there snickered at that...

[Thordis]

You don't get this weirdness in Europe.

Actually, you do. Europe has also experienced a growth in Christian renewal movements, though not as explosive as in South America, Africa or Asia, where the heart of global Christianity tends to be moving.

Most probably, some of those people have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit. It can look strange from the outside, especially to those who have never had a spiritual experience - hard to understand. There are even believers who hesitate to receive the Holy Spirit, either because they don't know what it is or because they find the thought of speaking in tongues, prophesying or dancing around the church to be weird, embarrassing or unnerving. Some fear that the Holy Spirit will take control of their bodies and make them look foolish, what is entirely untrue. While receiving the Holy Spirit can be a dramatic experience, the Holy Spirit doesn't force himself onto anyone. It is simply there to guide believers, give them wisdom and show some direction in their lives, but it's ultimately up to every Christian whether he wants to obey him or not. There are certain things that are too deep and difficult to understand without the wisdom of the Holy Spirit. There are people who know the Bible well, and can quote many passages by heart, but they do not understand it... and they do not know God... churches are full of them. That is where the Holy Spirit comes in, it puts the seal on our faith and gives us a thorough understanding of God's word. It was the Holy Spirit that gave power to Jesus's disciples to become his witnesses and do God's work... and when it came, it was pretty "dramatic", like a wave of fire.

The problem with some of those "old style"/"traditional" Christian churches is that they can be lifeless... the architecture is beautiful and imposing, the atmosphere is quiet and sober, but not much else... They reject having a personal relationship with God/Jesus, and many of them don't really understand the significance of the Holy Spirit today. If they are told they can experience God personally they think you're weird or there's something wrong with you. They usually say prayers that are structured in a pattern, like a poem, without actually speaking to God, they view speaking in tongues, healing or prophesying as something that was just for the time of the apostles... but there is no reason why today's Christians cannot and should not do some of the same things.

There are movements like the Last Reformation, founded in Denmark, who promote a return to the simple disciple life the first Christians had, as described in the Book of Acts.

[Loki]

I can agree with this, but I'm very careful with the movement because the Bible admonishes people to speak in order, with an interpreter, and without chaos. God is not the author of chaos/disorder is a new testament paraphrase. just be careful. I stay away from movements that are based on emotion. More worrying is the fact that a lot of these churches will throw out parts of the bible they don't like, and many of them have women preachers.

Yes, I know a lot of you out there snickered at that...

I don't know... from what you describe, is often how "dead" churches try to describe those who are alive with the Holy Spirit moving among them. It appears to me you do not yet understand what it is like to experience the Holy Spirit of God. I can really recommend you ask God to reveal more of himself to you.

By the way, many make the mistake by looking from outside, and just seeing emotions. You see, outsiders just see emotions from outside, but they do know know what CAUSED those emotions. Then they just say it's "emotionalism", end hence in fact they are saying: "emotions cause emotions". This is a bit silly, as you can see. Or more accurately: ignorant. And such criticism can even tend to be blasphemous and anti-God, saying it is not God, but the devil's influence. These people cannot discern between God and the devil, which is scary!

[Teutone]

The Spanish Miracle was a consequence of Franco opening up the economy on demand by the US government if he wanted US dollars that came along with building US military bases near a couple of Spanish ports. Franco understood how to run a military (he was far from being a military genius but he was very efficient) but he didn't understand much about anything else. The reason why his government survived was because he had abandoned the Nazis at the right time, and there was no interest in continuing a war in Europe against a nation that had lent very limited support to the Nazis before abandoning them altogether. Eventually it was seen as better that Franco controlled Spain than a potential emergence of Communism in Spain.

So he did everything right, whats your point?

I don't know why you bring up the Falangists. Franco disliked them. He destroyed that group and assimilated those that were willing to accept the new political order. If you wanted a political career you didn't go against the current. Fraga was one of Franco's top political guys. Fraga during Franco's life isn't the same Fraga after Franco.

Franco selfproclaimed falangism as the state ideology without folow it 1:1 and had conflicts with Jose Primo, neverless speaking about falangism these days is connected with Francist Spain.

The problem is separatist propaganda in Catalonia trying to shift blame for everything on Madrid when in reality they would have the same problems if Catalonia was independent. The only argument they have is that Madrid takes more tax dollars from them than they do from other regions. Navarra and the Basque lands are allowed to keep their tax dollars within their regions. Naturally anyone in Catalunya would be upset that they don't have the same privilege.

The other problem is taxes are too high and employee benefits are too expensive on businesses that they'll avoid hiring someone for full employment and instead have short term contracts. This effects the younger generation heavily: they bounce around the market and those that can't find work never develop job skills or a good work ethic.

I remember there was an Albanian/Croatian fellow living in Spain on this forum who was just finishing his university studies and he had never had job in his life. The only work experience he had was at a summer internship. I told him he's going to have a very difficult time adjusting to such a dramatic change in his life. You can't just develop responsibility, work ethic, etc. over night.

You have 0 idea about Spain, their economy or the problems they have apperentaly.

You dont realize all the problem are rooted in the 2008 financial crisis and the housing and hotel bubble that came with it.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

So he did everything right, whats your point?

His hand was forced. If you give credit to someone when their hand is forced then I don't know what to tell you.

He had many people killed. I'm speaking of innocent people. He allowed for an environment of where regular people were lined up against the wall and shot. This isn't Republican propaganda. My grandfather witnessed it himself. He was drafted at 17 into the Nationalist army. Franco also had infants from families who fought for the Republic adopted by Nationalist families, while the birth parents were told their child had died. This was done with the aid of the Catholic Church, which if I recall you're a big fan of.

He caused a lot of misery. It just happened not to be as miserable as that of other dictators. He became more lenient over time. As a fan of free speech you guess what happened to you if you gave a negative opinion of Franco. A good working over by the local police.

Franco selfproclaimed falangism as the state ideology without folow it 1:1 and had conflicts with Jose Primo, neverless speaking about falangism these days is connected with Francist Spain.

Franco didn't belong in that group and wasn't particularly happy when they and the Carlists were killing each other. He put an end to them. Jose Primo's death was a successful propaganda tool. That people connect Franco with a group he used for his own gain and then destroyed because they were potential competition to his authority is because they don't know any better.

You have 0 idea about Spain, their economy or the problems they have apperentaly.

It's cute that you think you know what you're talking about but I think deep down inside you know better. Here is a hint: he who speaks in details obviously knows more than he who doesn't.

You dont realize all the problem are rooted in the 2008 financial crisis and the housing and hotel bubble that came with it.

I'm speaking of the consequences of the housing crisis. For fuck's sake, my family IS from Spain. You don't think I haven't heard of the housing bubble pop in Spain? That would be like thinking an American isn't aware of the housing bubble that occurred at the same time. It's a bit difficult to ignore. The difference between Spain and the US is the US has a far more stronger economic infrastructure that allows it to deal with the fall out easier. You do realize that the extremely high unemployment among young Spaniards is a result of the economy tanking because of the housing bubble? Was I not speaking of the youth of Spain?

Why do I even bother with children? How old are you anyway? Sit and learn. No one under 24 should be allowed to speak as an authority on any subject. You just make yourselves look foolish.

[renaissance12]

It has already been disproven that Hawking died a Christian. Stop spreading lies.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/st...-pope-francis/

Pics of Christian's funeral of Hawking "speak" clearly..

Your link disproves nothing.. The Pope and Hawking pics.. are 2 years old..

[idioteque]

Remember Stephen Hawking Christian funeral...

He was the myth of razionalistic atheist in the Whole world...

That boggled my mind.