Do the Welsh have the most authentic identity in Britain?

[Gwydion]

By this I mean the Welsh identify with the ancient Celtic Britons, whereas the English identify with the Anglo-Saxons and the Scots identify with the Gaels, or at least this was the case historically. Going by genetics and what may be inferred by other means (archaeology, etc.) does this mean that of the peoples of Britain the identity of the Welsh most accurately reflects the true ethnic reality?

Framed in another way, many people assert that most of the British still descend from the ancient Celtic Britons and that there was no massive population replacement of the Britons with either Anglo-Saxons in England or Gaels in Scotland, at best each receiving a smaller genetic input from each extraneous group (Anglo-Saxons in Eastern England, Gaels in Western Scotland.) That the people of Britain seem closer to each other phenotypically, genetically, etc. than they do with outsiders seems to confirm a relative ethnic unity in Britain.

Does this mean that the Welsh are the only ones who truly identify with what they are? Could it be said that the English and Scots have essentially been LARPing as Saxons and Gaels for centuries?

[Creoda]

I wouldn't say Welsh identity is anymore authentic than Scottish or English. The English identify as British far more than they would identify as Germanic, and feel kinship with other British Isles countries, not continental ones. Also the English are authentically not Celtic and haven't been so for at least 1500 years. At what point does an identity become authentic? England and Scotland are two of the oldest unified nations in Europe, while the Welsh have never been a unified independent country. Not to hate on the Welsh, but their national history is pretty weak compared to the other home nations. They have always been an appendage and backwater, and they tend to align their nationalism in modern times with leftist class politics more often (something that's been a problem in Ireland and Scotland as well).

[Sikeliot]

There is likely a higher Gaelic element in western Scotland than there is a Germanic one anywhere in England, so some Scots are actually Gaelic in ancestry. Others are not.

[Graham]

The Welsh have always been a bit quiet compared to Scots who historically fought each other or had divisions of family clan identity or houses. Suppose you could say the Welsh had a more united identity and obedience, but don't have the history.

[Gwydion]

I wouldn't say Welsh identity is anymore authentic than Scottish or English. The English identify as British far more than they would identify as Germanic, and feel kinship with other British Isles countries, not continental ones. Also the English are authentically not Celtic and haven't been so for at least 1500 years. At what point does an identity become authentic? England and Scotland are two of the oldest unified nations in Europe, while the Welsh have never been a unified independent country. Not to hate on the Welsh, but their national history is pretty weak compared to the other home nations. They have always been an appendage and backwater, and they tend to align their nationalism in modern times with leftist class politics more often (something that's been a problem in Ireland and Scotland as well).

What I mean isn't by language and culture but going by genetics, ethnic stock, blood, population, etc. Prior to the coming of Caesar and even down to the evacuation of the Romans in Britain, the whole island was of Celtic stock who spoke old British (the language which would become Welsh, Cornish, and Breton), had a Brythonic culture, and prior to Christianity worshiped Gallo-Brittonic deities which would survive in an altered mythological form as Welsh/Cornish/Breton mythology.

The question is, do most English and Scots still descend from those same inhabitants? If so, this means that of the various identities in Britain, the Welsh (as understanding themselves as Britons rather than Saxons or Gaels) would be the one which most accurately reflects the ethnic reality, correct?

Again here I am talking about ethnic identity, not national history and whether it was strong or weak. That said while the modern English may identify as British more than Germanic, this obviously wasn't the case during the Anglo-Saxon era or the Middle Ages. Much of the racialist literature produced in the 19th century also lauded the Anglo-Saxon origin and identity of England vis-a-vis the supposedly inferior Celts.

[Graham]

It is telling by the low variation of surnames in Wales. The genetics could be from genetic drifting and a bottleneck. There were little Vikings but a huge Anglo Norman takeover with all those castles they have.

[Creoda]

What I mean isn't by language and culture but going by genetics, ethnic stock, blood, population, etc. Prior to the coming of Caesar and even down to the evacuation of the Romans in Britain, the whole island was of Celtic stock who spoke old British (the language which would become Welsh, Cornish, and Breton), had a Brythonic culture, and prior to Christianity worshiped Gallo-Brittonic deities which would survive in an altered mythological form as Welsh/Cornish/Breton mythology.

The question is, do most English and Scots still descend from those same inhabitants? If so, this means that of the various identities in Britain, the Welsh (as understanding themselves as Britons rather than Saxons or Gaels) would be the one which most accurately reflects the ethnic reality, correct?

Again here I am talking about ethnic identity, not national history and whether it was strong or weak. That said while the modern English may identify as British more than Germanic, this obviously wasn't the case during the Anglo-Saxon era or the Middle Ages. Much of the racialist literature produced in the 19th century also lauded the Anglo-Saxon origin and identity of England vis-a-vis the supposedly inferior Celts.

If you mean is the Welsh culture more consistent with that of their ancient ancestors, then yes, it is, however most Welsh speak English of course. I don't agree that it makes their identity more authentic. I don't consider the English or Scottish ethnic groups to have existed prior to the early Middle Ages, they are a post-Roman creation and as such their authenticity as distinguishable groups begins at that point. In the case of the English they were speaking a Germanic language from their beginning.

[Gwydion]

If you mean is the Welsh culture more consistent with that of their ancient ancestors, then yes, it is, however most Welsh speak English of course. I don't agree that it makes their identity more authentic. I don't consider the English or Scottish ethnic groups to have existed prior to the early Middle Ages, they are a post-Roman creation and as such their authenticity as distinguishable groups begins at that point. In the case of the English they were speaking a Germanic language from their beginning.

I can agree with what you are saying if we are speaking of them as distinguishable groups. But where you say Welsh culture is more consistent with their ancient ancestors, wouldn't it be correct to say it is also more consistent with the ancient ancestors of the English and Scots based on what I've mentioned above?

Let's frame it in another way with a hypothetical scenario of a different island and a different time period. Let's say Japan in the 16th century was conquered by the colonial European powers they encountered, with part of the island becoming Spanish speaking, having a Spanish identity, and having a minority of Spanish genetics whereas another part of the island became Dutch speaking, had a Dutch identity, and some Dutch genetics, while finally in some small corner of Japan there was a hold out of Japanese language, culture, myth, identity, etc. Would it not be the case that the Japanese part most authentically represented the ethnic reality of the whole island rather than the new Spanish and Dutch parts since all of them still largely descended from the old Japanese?

[Creoda]

I can agree with what you are saying if we are speaking of them as distinguishable groups. But where you say Welsh culture is more consistent with their ancient ancestors, wouldn't it be correct to say it is also more consistent with the ancient ancestors of the English and Scots based on what I've mentioned above?

Let's frame it in another way with a hypothetical scenario of a different island and a different time period. Let's say Japan in the 16th century was conquered by the colonial European powers they encountered, with part of the island becoming Spanish speaking, having a Spanish identity, and having a minority of Spanish genetics whereas another part of the island became Dutch speaking, had a Dutch identity, and some Dutch genetics, while finally in some small corner of Japan there was a hold out of Japanese language, culture, myth, identity, etc. Would it not be the case that the Japanese part most authentically represented the ethnic reality of the whole island rather than the new Spanish and Dutch parts since all of them still largely descended from the old Japanese?

I would say they're all (basically) Japanese, just as English, Scots and Welsh are all basically Britons, only one of those groups is more authentically Japanese/British than the others. If the Dutch/Spanish admixed Japanese began to separate themselves from the full Japanese or vice versa on the basis of genetics/culture that wouldn't be illegitimate, nor would their separate identity be inauthentic. Also the example might be more accurate if you used Chinese and Koreans, the English and Scots are descended from other similar NW Europeans not other races.

[Grace O'Malley]

Gaelic is actually the older language and I'll see if I can get more information but not tonight. The language shift might have been due to Britain having more contact with the European mainland. At some point Ireland lost some contact with both Britain and the continent so didn't get the language shift from q-Celtic to p-Celtic. I've read this in the past and will see if I can find more info on the topic during the week.

Regarding genetics we know from the Insular Celtic paper that Western Scotland is very similar to the Irish and there is also the M222 connection. You can clearly see in this grapic that Southern Scotland e.g. SSC cluster with Ireland. Apparently the most distinctive regions are Orkney and Wales.



Here you can see the distinctiveness of Orkney and Wales in comparison to other areas incl Ireland.