View Poll Results: Which is more likely?

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  • The Siculi, Sicanians, and Elymians were absorbed into the Greek and Punic populations, their DNA makes a significant portion of ours today.

    4 57.14%
  • The Siculi were likely pushed inland and marginalized, and contribute little to our DNA, but the other two populations were not.

    1 14.29%
  • All three populations were likely reduced in number by Greek and Punic colonists, and contribute little to our DNA today.

    2 28.57%
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Thread: Did the ancient Greeks genocide, or assimilate, the Siculi of Sicily?

  1. #21
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sikeliot View Post
    The Phoenicians/Carthaginians merged with the Elymians in western Sicily. The Elymians sided with the Phoenicians over the Greeks.

    Some of the Sicanians, whose territory overlapped both with the Greek and Phoenician settlements, being a more advanced culture who had been receiving Aegean influences even before the Greek colonists arrived, were peacefully Hellenized and others are believed to have assimilated into Punic culture. Any remaining descendants of the Sicanians would have been overridden by later waves of migration: Arab era settlement from the Middle East, Byzantine Greek settlement, and so on.

    The Siculi on the other hand fought vigorously against the Greeks and were pushed further and further inland, into the region that is now Enna, the eastern part of Palermo, and the inland east. They were eventually defeated by the Greek colonies and ceased to exist as a distinct identity.

    The question becomes, were the Siculi mostly Hellenized, or were they pushed out of Sicily and/or killed? If we believe the commonly cited history, we would believe that, at least, coastal Sicilians have almost no ancestry from the Siculi.

    Based on genetics, the people in the region inhabited by the Siculi in ancient times, today are very close to Cretan and Dodecanese Greeks, and are much less similar to central Italians, where the Siculi were believed to come from. Haplogroup R1b is common in eastern Sicily but is often R1b-L23 which is of West Asian origins. I do not see any strong evidence of their presence in our DNA today.
    The Phoenicians had 4 cities in Sicily and their genetic footprint is therefore insignificant, the Carthaginians were present not only in Sicily but also in Iberia, Sardinia and Corsica, in these places genetically they left nothing as in Sicily.
    The Muslim presence in Sicily did not last long, and had no settlements from the Middle East at that time.
    R-M269 (R-L23) has been found in Yamna culture and is also common in the Balkans and in Russia, so it is not exactly West Asian.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    The Phoenicians had 4 cities in Sicily and their genetic footprint is therefore insignificant, the Carthaginians were present not only in Sicily but also in Iberia, Sardinia and Corsica, in these places genetically they left nothing as in Sicily.
    The Muslim presence in Sicily did not last long, and had no settlements from the Middle East at that time.
    R-M269 (R-L23) has been found in Yamna culture and is also common in the Balkans and in Russia, so it is not exactly West Asian.
    I also don't understand why he thinks the Phoenicians merged with the locals and assimilated them and the bad Greeks allegedly genocided them.

    The Phoenicians were not peacefull people they were pretty warlike and brutal.
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

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  3. #23
    La Vecchia Guardia Apricity Funding Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    The Phoenicians had 4 cities in Sicily and their genetic footprint is therefore insignificant, the Carthaginians were present not only in Sicily but also in Iberia, Sardinia and Corsica, in these places genetically they left nothing as in Sicily.
    The Muslim presence in Sicily did not last long, and had no settlements from the Middle East at that time.
    R-M269 (R-L23) has been found in Yamna culture and is also common in the Balkans and in Russia, so it is not exactly West Asian.
    IMO R-L23 in Sicily is likely connected to Magna Graecia and possibly earlier movements from the Balkans and Anatolia.

    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    I also don't understand why he thinks the Phoenicians merged with the locals and assimilated them and the bad Greeks allegedly genocided them.

    The Phoenicians were not peacefull people they were pretty warlike and brutal.
    Phoenicians were mostly interested in trade rather than conquest and their settlements were primarily used as ports of call for their ships as they traded throughout the Mediterranean (the Sicilian ones being no exception); these trade routes even went as far as modern-day Britain IIRC.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    IMO R-L23 in Sicily is likely connected to Magna Graecia and possibly earlier movements from the Balkans and Anatolia.



    Phoenicians were mostly interested in trade rather than conquest and their settlements were primarily used as ports of call for their ships as they traded throughout the Mediterranean (the Sicilian ones being no exception); these trade routes even went as far as modern-day Britain IIRC.
    Nevertheless they were violent and brutal as well there were also Phoenicians attacking Greeks settlements and also the people in the Levant today are not that peaceful.

    And being occupied with trade doesn mean you are not violent.
    Most of todays wars are fought because of trade.
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

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  5. #25
    Junior Member Hylates's Avatar
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    Was Sicily colonized by the Greeks during the ''Dark Ages'' ? I mean was it colonized after Mycenaean civilization ?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hylates View Post
    Was Sicily colonized by the Greeks during the ''Dark Ages'' ? I mean was it colonized after Mycenaean civilization ?
    Yes

    Both Dorian and Ionian Greeks founded colonies in Sicily
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Demons don't scare me.
    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    They should be scared of me.

  7. #27
    Junior Member Hylates's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post
    Yes

    Both Dorian and Ionian Greeks founded colonies in Sicily
    Hmmm . If the Dorians forced their expansion on Peloponnese they could have done the same in Sicily too . I mean we don't have to call it a genocide but there is a chance they killed a number of the local population . As far as i remember most of the Achaeans/Mycenaeans fled their lands due to the Dorians . The Sicilians could have done the same .

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hylates View Post
    Hmmm . If the Dorians forced their expansion on Peloponnese they could have done the same in Sicily too . I mean we don't have to call it a genocide but there is a chance they killed a number of the local population . As far as i remember most of the Achaeans/Mycenaeans fled their lands due to the Dorians . The Sicilians could have done the same .
    First of all i don't buy that the Dorians were responsible for all bad things or did everything by force.
    This is the superstitous singleminded blame it all on one strawman or black sheep mentality.



    In Sicily the Dorian colonies flourished and also had alot of cultural contributions.

    For example Archimidis was born in Syracuse which was Dorian.
    Archytas was from Tarent which was a Spartan colony in Apulia.

    Now tell me about any contributions to Math,Philosophy and Science in ancient Sicily coming from the parts that were Phoenician.

    Actually concerning genocides and Greeks i agree with him
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa Karadeni View Post
    Ancient greeks never did geonocides on local populations!!!

    Everywhere they went,they just assimilated the natives.

    From sicily,to asia minor and even with alexanders the great conquest in middle east.
    Whereas in general the Romans were much more imperialist than the Greeks and about them its known
    that they genocided or almost genocided certain people.

    Don't forget that Phoenicians weren't faint hearted or peaceful people neither just as they aren't today

    The old Testament is filled with stories of wars,invasions,slaughters and tribal conflicts between Near Eastern
    Groups

    Lebanese gangs in Australia are known for violent thug behaviour and in the crime statistics far ahead of
    Greek immigrants
    Last edited by Tauromachos; 06-19-2018 at 10:06 PM.
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Demons don't scare me.
    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    They should be scared of me.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa Karadeni View Post
    Ancient greeks never did geonocides on local populations!!!

    Everywhere they went,they just assimilated the natives.

    From sicily,to asia minor and even with alexanders the great conquest in middle east.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sturmgewehr View Post
    Ade gamisu
    The Talmud tells us that the only language the Torah could be translated into elegantly is Greek.

    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Demons don't scare me.
    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    They should be scared of me.

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