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Thread: All things considered, is Scotland closer to the Irish or other British?

  1. #11
    Senior Member Mug Ruith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    I dont really like it. Love Ireland and Donegal is one of my favourite places have been. But prefer the actual Irish in Ireland.

    I dont even want to get started on Rangers politics and the Orange Lodge. Not a fan.
    Yeah the modern squabbles between Protestant Scot and Catholic Irish don't really interest me either since I am not an adherent. I am more concerned with ancient or deep roots.

    That said I can't help but be a bit biased toward Gaelic Scotland historically and feel positive about amicable relations between Scot and Irish due to my own ancestry, namely a Scottish paternal lineage but a mother who is 80%+ descended of Irish Gaels. In other words I am a fan of figures like this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasdair_Mac_Colla

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I did and it does not contradict what I am saying, which is that Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic in origin (or claimed to be) and traced its lineage to the Dal Riatan kings. The Angevins were Frenchman and traced their lineage to Anjou despite being Kings of England.
    Shite. Kenneth's origins are NOT GAELIC. They have NEVER BEEN confirmed as Gaelic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    The Dal Riata proper preceded Norse colonization and it moved eastward in the face of Viking occupation of their historic homeland in the Western Isles, which is part of the overall process of why the Dal Riatic Scots and Picts fused.
    ROFL. You're not getting it, are you? I thought I'd make it simple with mention of Norse. Get your mind thinking.

    But now I'll be blunt. Dal Riata itself was NOT solely Gaelic. It also included Picts & other Britons who went over to Ireland, I mentioned them prior > the Cruthin families. Learn something of history that goes beyond wikipedia pages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Most of the Normans inherited previous Gaelic dynasties through intermarriage, so even their fiefdoms had previously Gaelic dynastic origins. There was a reason Alexander III, the king just previous to the period of Balliol and Bruce, had his Ollamh recite his lineage back to Dal Riata. Beyond Arbroath Bruce refers to the Irish in his letter to them as nostra nacio or "our nation", implying a sense of common nationhood with the Gaelic Irish. It seems the Irish of an earlier period felt similar since there are many references in documents to "fir Eireann agus Alban."
    Not all. Robert de Bruce, for example, as you yipped about him originally was straight Norman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    If you are interested in a more in depth exploration of the topic, look into this work but be warned it is very dry:

    https://boydellandbrewer.com/the-iri...turies-hb.html
    Unlike you, I am Irish. I am Celtic. My haplogroup, after all, is Isle specific. My family is an old Irish clan; one that subclans settled in Scotland 9th & 10th century. I don't need a basic summary, thanks.





    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Yea but I never claimed tartans and bagpipes= Scotland. I claimed that Scottish tartans and the Great Highland Bagpipes, which are more strongly associated with early modern Highland Scottish (Gaelic) culture, have become emblems or popular images of Scotland.
    To the ignorant maybe. There is more to Scotland & Scottish people than that. It's like saying all America is known for is hippies & drug cartel.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I don't like Braveheart either and I am not saying that modern Gaels of Scotland promote a stereotyped image of themselves. What I am saying is that, thanks to Scottish Romanticism, Highland images such as tartan and the GHB are popular icons of Scotland. A brief Google search of "Scotland" or "Scottish people" or "traditional Scotland" will reveal as much.
    Again to the ignorant maybe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Here's the reality: Kenneth McAlpin claimed descent from the Dal Riata. Whether it was true or not is debated, but that was how the kings of Alba perceived their lineage. What is absolutely certain is that ethno-linguistically, Kenneth's dynasty was Gaelic.
    If you have some MAGICAL make belief proof that he was Gaelic SHARE IT.
    Cuimhnich air na daoine s an tinig u

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    Senior Member Mug Ruith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Shite. Kenneth's origins are NOT GAELIC. They have NEVER BEEN confirmed as Gaelic.
    It was the claim of the dynasty, it was how the dynasty perceived itself, and it was the linguistic and cultural affiliation of the dynasty. The name "Scotland" wasn't applied to the new Kingdom of Alba without reason, it was because in the earlier pre-Norman period the majority language and culture as well as that of the monarchy was Gaelic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    ROFL. You're not getting it, are you? I thought I'd make it simple with mention of Norse. Get your mind thinking.

    But now I'll be blunt. Dal Riata itself was NOT solely Gaelic. It also included Picts & other Britons who went over to Ireland, I mentioned them prior > the Cruthin families. Learn something of history that goes beyond wikipedia pages.
    Of course and the Gaels of Ireland weren't uniformly from one single people, they also to some degree assimilated pre-Celtic inhabitants as well as potentially other non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned. That doesn't make them any less of Gaels. The Picts and Britons were related insular Celtic peoples who were assimilated into the Scotic, i.e. Gaelic, nation.

    That said there are some modern authorities in archaeology and other fields who question the idea that Argyll and the Inner Hebrides only became Gaelicized with the coming of the Dal Riata from Antrim. Some believe this area was part of the Irish/Gaelic orbit since prehistory, which perhaps is confirmed by references by the Romans of Picti and Scoti working together centuries before Fergus Mor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Not all. Robert de Bruce, for example, as you yipped about him originally was straight Norman.
    I was talking about the fiefdoms held by Normans by Bruces time...most of them were originally held by Gaelic dynasties that died out and were inherited by Normans. That said Bruce's mother's family was Gaelic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Unlike you, I am Irish. I am Celtic. My haplogroup, after all, is Isle specific. My family is an old Irish clan; one that subclans settled in Scotland 9th & 10th century. I don't need a basic summary, thanks.
    Yea and by ancestry I am also Celtic, both Scottish (father) and Irish (mother). Being something doesn't necessarily indicate familiarity...a Frenchman who gets a PhD in Chinese history might well know more than some random Chinese farmer on the topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    If you have some MAGICAL make belief proof that he was Gaelic SHARE IT.
    He spoke Gaelic, claimed descent from Dal Riata, and was buried in Iona, traditional burial location of Dal Riatan kings and center of the Gaelic Columban Church. If his ancestry was once Pictish, which isn't known, by the time of his ascension he was a Gael by culture, language, and identity, or at least this was the case among his successors since it must be admitted that Kenneth MacAlpin is a shadowy figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    It was the claim of the dynasty, it was how the dynasty perceived itself, and it was the linguistic and cultural affiliation of the dynasty. The name "Scotland" wasn't applied to the new Kingdom of Alba without reason, it was because in the earlier pre-Norman period the majority language and culture as well as that of the monarchy was Gaelic.
    Christ. Kenneth is NOT Aodh. It is NOT real Gaelic. Understand yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Of course and the Gaels of Ireland weren't uniformly from one single people, they also to some degree assimilated pre-Celtic inhabitants as well as potentially other non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned. That doesn't make them any less of Gaels. The Picts and Britons were related insular Celtic peoples who were assimilated into the Scotic, i.e. Gaelic, nation.
    ROFL. The Curthin are not Gaelic Celts. Comprend?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    That said there are some modern authorities in archaeology and other fields who question the idea that Argyll and the Inner Hebrides only became Gaelicized with the coming of the Dal Riata from Antrim. Some believe this area was part of the Irish/Gaelic orbit since prehistory, which perhaps is confirmed by references by the Romans of Picti and Scoti working together centuries before Fergus Mor.
    Ever heard the saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Tribal groups fight & ally as is their wont. Over land, resources, etc. About as newsworthy as saying northern countries in December get snow.

    As for the Roman they were a new enemy so of course old enemies allied to rid themselves of the threat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    I was talking about the fiefdoms held by Normans by Bruces time...most of them were originally held by Gaelic dynasties that died out and were inherited by Normans. That said Bruce's mother's family was Gaelic.
    Wherever do you think the name Marjorie is Gaelic? She was, at best, 1/4th Gaelic.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    Yea and by ancestry I am also Celtic, both Scottish (father) and Irish (mother). Being something doesn't necessarily indicate familiarity...a Frenchman who gets a PhD in Chinese history might well know more than some random Chinese farmer on the topic.
    You're American of potential Celtic ancestry - R1b is far too generic to make any DNA based claims - with typical limited knowledge about the UK. I highly doubt you've a PhD yet alone one in Scottish or Irish history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwydion View Post
    He spoke Gaelic, claimed descent from Dal Riata, and was buried in Iona, traditional burial location of Dal Riatan kings and center of the Gaelic Columban Church. If his ancestry was once Pictish, which isn't known, by the time of his ascension he was a Gael by culture, language, and identity, or at least this was the case among his successors since it must be admitted that Kenneth MacAlpin is a shadowy figure.
    So did in Norse & Roman cultures. How do you think they traded? By dancing around a fire pit? Speaking Gaelic means absolutely nothing.

    So did Norse Gaels. Knowing Gael culture means absolutely nothing.


    Just as how being buried at Iona means nothing. Or did you not know Iona includes Norse Kings too? I said learn more than wikipedia.
    Last edited by Traveler; 07-11-2018 at 08:13 PM.
    Cuimhnich air na daoine s an tinig u

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    Senior Member Mug Ruith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Christ. Kenneth is NOT Aodh. It is NOT real Gaelic. Understand yet?
    So a medieval Gaelic Irishmen of Gaelic lineage, language, and culture who gets named some English, Welsh, French, or Biblical name ceases to be a Gael? In terms of lineage, we don't know what McAlpin was with absolute certainty but most historians accept he was a Gael. Whatever his origins, his dynasty spoke Gaelic, was culturally Gaelic, traced their lineage to the Dal Riata, was part of the Gaelic Columban Church, and so on. They were Gaels and even seen as such by contemporary Irishmen.



    Why do you think Scotland is called "Scotland" or that Fenian tales were popular in medieval Scotland but not so much elsewhere in medieval Europe?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    ROFL. The Curthin are not Gaelic Celts. Comprend?
    I know, I am saying that the Cruthin were assimilated by the Gaels, especially by the High Middle Ages. Those assimilated Cruthin aren't Gaels because they were once Picts or Britons, a near identical group of insular Celts ethnically speaking?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Ever heard the saying - the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Tribal groups fight & ally as is their wont. Over land, resources, etc. About as newsworthy as saying northern countries in December get snow.

    As for the Roman they were a new enemy so of course old enemies allied to rid themselves of the threat.
    My point isn't about the Romans and allies, enemies, but that there was a "Scoti" or Gaelic presence in the Hebrides/Argyll prior to historic move of the Dal Riatan kings out of Antrim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    Wherever do you think the name Marjorie is Gaelic? She was, at best, 1/4th Gaelic.
    I don't think the name is Gaelic but that her paternal lineage is the Gaelic Earldom of Carrick and if I recall spoke Gaelic as her first language, was raised in a Gaelic culture, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Traveler View Post
    You're American of potential Celtic ancestry - R1b is far too generic to make any DNA based claims - with typical limited knowledge about the UK. I highly doubt you've a PhD yet alone one in Scottish or Irish history.
    I've got my genealogy traced out and know where all my ancestors came from. Unfortunately with my direct paternal line I only know they came from Scotland, but based on my research it seems a high chance they were from a family on Islay, Kildalton Parish. My mother's ancestry is a different story...she is majority Irish by blood and her last ancestors to leave Ireland were Gaelic speakers from Liscannor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    So a medieval Gaelic Irishmen of Gaelic lineage, language, and culture who gets named some English, Welsh, French, or Biblical name ceases to be a Gael? In terms of lineage, we don't know what McAlpin was with absolute certainty but most historians accept he was a Gael. Whatever his origins, his dynasty spoke Gaelic, was culturally Gaelic, traced their lineage to the Dal Riata, was part of the Gaelic Columban Church, and so on. They were Gaels and even seen as such by contemporary Irishmen.
    Let's make it simple, yes? An off the boat Muslim speaks English, knows American culture (whatever that is), and changed his name to an Anglo name to blend in more. Is he English then?

    And no, not every historian thinks he is Gael. Just Wikipedia page ones. It's why I said read more than wikipedia because it's very obvious that's the extent of your so-called "knowledge".


    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    Why do you think Scotland is called "Scotland" or that Fenian tales were popular in medieval Scotland but not so much elsewhere in medieval Europe?
    I don't know. A people called the Scotti maybe?

    Fenian tales? So "historian" tell me why an Irish lore would be popular elsewhere? What a side-splitting joke of a question.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    I know, I am saying that the Cruthin were assimilated by the Gaels, especially by the High Middle Ages. Those assimilated Cruthin aren't Gaels because they were once Picts or Britons, a near identical group of insular Celts ethnically speaking?
    You don't even know who the Cruthin were. Hence your non-Gaelic Celts, possibly such as the Cruthin you mentioned prior.

    As for assimilation. If you've done more than read wikipedia pages you might be worth discussing Cruthin with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    My point isn't about the Romans and allies, enemies, but that there was a "Scoti" or Gaelic presence in the Hebrides/Argyll prior to historic move of the Dal Riatan kings out of Antrim.
    Quit backtracking to make yourself feel special. Unlike you I've actually read a number of historical books on Ireland & Scotland. I could run circles around your wikipedia-based knowledge with my eyes closed.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    I don't think the name is Gaelic but that her paternal lineage is the Gaelic Earldom of Carrick and if I recall spoke Gaelic as her first language, was raised in a Gaelic culture, etc.


    Let's make it simple, yes? An off the boat Muslim speaks English, knows American culture (whatever that is), and changed his name to an Anglo name to blend in more. Is he English then?



    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    I've got my genealogy traced out and know where all my ancestors came from. Unfortunately with my direct paternal line I only know they came from Scotland, but based on my research it seems a high chance they were from a family on Islay, Kildalton Parish.
    A Hebrides family. Impressive. If one knows nothing of the region. Like said there were Norse trading posts in Scotland & that happened to include a hotbed called Dumfries. And there were Vikings on Islay.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mug Ruith View Post
    My mother's ancestry is a different story...she is majority Irish by blood and her last ancestors to leave Ireland were Gaelic speakers from Liscannor.
    And how long ago was that?
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