Vladimir Putin brings to Belgrade package of projects worth USD 10 billions

[The Ripper]

The West is Western Civilization - the historically Catholic and Protestant nations of Europe and their New World offshoots. It takes a particularly fringe and cynical outlook to define it as 'American capitalism and their lackeys'. In fact, that is rather close to the old Soviet view.

America does not serve "Western Civilization". Also Russia and the Orthodox countries are part of the Occident. I was commenting on your perception of the West, which is clearly defined as American hegemony and its supporters. All those against American hegemony cease to be Western in your perception. Which is why you exclude Russia.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Riipumatto
America does not serve "Western Civilization".

It leads Western Civilization, though I know that fact drives you crazy.

I was commenting on your perception of the West, which is clearly defined as American hegemony and its supporters. All those against American hegemony cease to be Western in your perception.

American hegemony is a good thing, yes. And those most apt to oppose it typically like non-Western and outlaw regimes, e.g., the real tendency for many 'nationalists' to worship people like Qadhafi, Chavez, Kim-Jong-Il, Ahmadinejad, etc.

Which is why you exclude Russia.

It's not a matter of me excluding Russia. They've never been a Western state.

[The Ripper]

It leads Western Civilization, though I know that fact drives you crazy.

If by lead you mean corrupts.

American hegemony is a good thing, yes. And those most apt to oppose it typically like non-Western and outlaw regimes, e.g., the real tendency for many 'nationalists' to worship people like Qadhafi, Chavez, Kim-Jong-Il, Ahmadinejad, etc.

American hegemony is a terrible thing. Those apt to support it usually also support the annihilation of a European Europe.

It's not a matter of me excluding Russia. They've never been a Western state.

Of course they are Western in a global perspective, since they are European. Only when speaking from an intra-European perspective can they be deemed Eastern.

[The Lawspeaker]

America ? Western Civilisation ? Since when ?

Well they do lead a plutocratic powerblock but they are sure as hell not the leader of the Western Civilisation. Because America lacks that ingredient you need for civilisation: culture. Normal human decency.

Judeo-American hegemony actually did a lot more damage to Western Civilisation then the British and French hegemonies before. At least the two brought in culture and influenced nations positively as well as negatively and it would be very brutally honest to conclude that American influence has been overtly negative in values and ethics, the cultural diversity (yes - American "cultural" influence produces a monoculture) of both European and other countries, it devastated much of the natural life planet on a scale the British and the French did never dream off. It destroyed the actual sovereignty and actual dignities of countries the world over on a scale the British Empire could never have achieved.

Russia not part of the Western Civilisation ? At least Russia is something the U.S is not: European. We consider it to be part of us here and you would find few Europeans that wouldn't.

[Gaztelu]

Perhaps the Serbs may have the money to reconquer Kosovo and Constantinople*.

























*In the name of Orthodox Christianity

[Osweo]

The Milosevic regime was rather friendly with the Chicoms, it alienated Europe,

Oh yes, EVERYONE I know was feeling so dreadfully alienated when that bastard Blair was planning to besmirch our reputation by dragging us into that filthy business.

and its safe to assume that the more anti-Western Serbs are the more likely they will be to jump in bed with China.

This China thing's become a worrying mania with you, Joe. Is this pretty much a consensus in certain circles over Beyond, now? As I've said before, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, this sort of 'us and them' talk. I worry it'll drag us all down into shit even more despicable than the bombing of fellow Europeans that we were part of twelve years ago.

But how the Fuck do you get from Putin to China?! Russian and the Middle Kingdom periodically go through phases of outward mutual good will, but they go out of them again quickly enough. You really think that Serbia will try to play one off against the other, especially when religious and cultural links are borne in mind?!

For the sake of Europe that better not happen. China will be the new Ottomans, and the Serbs are still living their collaboration with the Turks down. I doubt it'll happen though. Serbia is looking west.

WTF. 'Collaboration'... How the FUCK do you 'reason' THAT out?!?!

Ladies and Gents, is THIS collaboration?!?


What the FUCK are you talking about, Joe?

Needless to say, the answer to Western travails is not to break bread with China, or enable them or other non-Western-non-white powers to become stronger. That's curing cancer with machinegun therapy.

China will grow in power no matter what. The only way to prevent this is to actively hamper their development, thereby making them hate us. Which is folly anyway, as it will NOT WORK. All you will achieve is bad blood between us.

It's a small fucking planet, and there's fuck all else place to go, so we need to work with our neighbours no matter what, and we're ALL neighbours now, and the Chinese have to be allowed to take their natural place as a great power. The same was true of Germany before 1914. It took two world wars to stamp her down, and ALL that we achieved was to almost fatally cripple OURSELVES. Rising powers must be accommodated, for our OWN good. We are still in competition, but instead of trying to trip up our rivals, it would be better if we concentrated on improving our own performance.

THe sort of action you advocate, Joe, is more similar to the spiteful lashings-out of a corrupt old empire on the wane, exactly like the Ottoman who built the Tower of Skulls, than any healthy strong great power. You are the 'Sick Man' of our time, and refuse to retire gracefully, determined to take us all down with you if you must fall.

I blame the "West" for not embracing Russia when it was still time. They have effectively alienated the biggest European ally. But, Russia will still choose to ally itself with Europe rather than anything else. The West's governments are really short-sighted.

Fucking nail on the HEAD. We are lucky that no matter what, Russia will still continue to approach us as a brother. A people brought up on Shakespeare, Conan Doyle, Dumas and Jack London will never leave us.

The West = American global hegemony and its satellites.

When 'The West' comes out of Joe's mouth, and the Anglophone mainstream media, yes.

The West is Western Civilization - the historically Catholic and Protestant nations of Europe and their New World offshoots. It takes a particularly fringe and cynical outlook to define it as 'American capitalism and their lackeys'. In fact, that is rather close to the old Soviet view.

Like it or not, the USA has gone off on a very peculiar trajectory in comparison with the heartland of the west. It may spin off into its own destruction. I don't wish that on my ethnic kin and friends there, but a GREAT deal of effort is required to get that superpower back in kilter with the rest of us.

In any case, even the way you define it makes it better than China, India, the Third World, Islam, or even Russia for that matter.

The Han in the PRC are guaranteed that the future will belong to them. Each and every Muslim is hailed by his civilisation's ideology as a guardian of the very will of God, entrusted with a divine mission to spread His domain. The Russian state has always glorified the achievements of the Russian people whenever it has shrugged off the paralysis brought on it from without (by Polsko-Lithuanian Interventionists, German sponsored Bolshevik terrorists, and most recently by the adherents of 'Western' predatory wild Capitalism), and again we are dealing with a sense of divine Mission and Destiny. I know nothing of India, but the position of the Englishman in his 'West' is one of impending genocide by mongrelisation, murder and outright replacement.

Of all the blocs you mention, the native of the 'West' is in by FAR the worst position.

Perhaps the Serbs may have the money to reconquer Kosovo and Constantinople*.

*In the name of Orthodox Christianity

Fuck that, let's get old Celtic GALATIA back.


Trebizond and Lake Van too! To the TAURUS!

[Loki]

Fuck that, let's get old Celtic GALATIA back.

A good reason to be an atheist ... despite Saint Paul's fervent intercession for the Christians in Asia Minor, they still fell to the Turks eventually.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Serbia becoming a satellite state of Russia in the Balkans is a lot more realistic than Bulgaria becoming such since corruption is not a big problem as it is in Bulgaria. There needs to be some sort of program for Serbs to increase population growth though since we are sitting in the low 7 million in the Balkans right now. I think to be a significant force we need to pull that number up from 7 to 10 then 15 and finally 20 million. I foresee with intensive economic investment by the Russians would provide quicker economic growth and thus making it easier to boost demographic growth rather than sit on flat to negative demographic growth as it is the case today.

We shouldn't ignore Greece since it is also another major player in the Balkans. It's in a bit of a tough position today. For a long time it had been America's ally whose partnership started to dissolve after Greece became part of the EU and Turkey embracing closer ties with the USA. I think for Greece to survive into the future it has to abandon America and align with its traditional Orthodox Christian ally, Russia who is more than capable of helping Greece economically and militarily.

Russia really need to invest into the two countries if it wants a counterweight against a strong Turkey in the near future and form a bulwark and sponge against possible American/NATO incursions.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Osweo
Oh yes, EVERYONE I know was feeling so dreadfully alienated when that bastard Blair was planning to besmirch our reputation by dragging us into that filthy business.

That 'filthy business' was necessary to stop the war from widening into WW3, but your determination to trash your own in favor of others is well known to moi (little different from the multicultural left in its own way), and the interesting thing is the inconsistency of it all. Take this:

It's a small fucking planet, and there's fuck all else place to go, so we need to work with our neighbours no matter what, and we're ALL neighbours now, and the Chinese have to be allowed to take their natural place as a great power. The same was true of Germany before 1914. It took two world wars to stamp her down, and ALL that we achieved was to almost fatally cripple OURSELVES.

In other words, the West must both not act because it may start a major war, and must not act to prevent a major war. But mainly it must not act.

This China thing's become a worrying mania with you, Joe. Is this pretty much a consensus in certain circles over Beyond, now?

Well, what can I say. We Americans are funny that way. We'd prefer not to be at China's mercy. Go figure.

WTF. 'Collaboration'... How the FUCK do you 'reason' THAT out?!?!

Serb collaboration with the Turks is well known to anyone familiar with the history in question.

The Russian state has always glorified the achievements of the Russian people whenever it has shrugged off the paralysis brought on it from without (by Polsko-Lithuanian Interventionists, German sponsored Bolshevik terrorists, and most recently by the adherents of 'Western' predatory wild Capitalism), and again we are dealing with a sense of divine Mission and Destiny.

Russia is a backward state, despite its vast resources, and at one time was seriously threatened by Sweden. Even post-USSR it STILL continues to support all of the worst regimes, and I'm not even going to bother mentioning all of the damage they did in the Communist era. I've covered that well enough elsewhere.

[Osweo]

That 'filthy business' was necessary to stop the war from widening into WW3, but your determination to trash your own in favor of others is well known to moi (little different from the multicultural left in its own way), and the interesting thing is the inconsistency of it all. Take this:

Can you explain how an internal Serbian matter could have led to WWIII? No great power has anything to gain from such a catastrophe.

The only thing that causes World Wars is when superpowers get trigger happy.

In other words, the West must both not act because it may start a major war, and must not act to prevent a major war. But mainly it must not act.

'We' act, act and ACT, and HOW does our situation improve?! Not a jot.

Well, what can I say. We Americans are funny that way. We'd prefer not to be at China's mercy. Go figure.

So the Chairman of the CCP is gunna start ordering you around in your own home if we don't keep on flinging bombs around the world?!

You forget that your own state is almost a continent in itself. Even if China took over Europe and Africa directly (which will not happen), you'd still be largely unassailable.



You ignored the MOST important part of my post, of course. The native citizen of the nations that have been swallowed up into your 'West' are in the WORST DEMOGRAPHIC SITUATION of ANY OF THEIR CONTEMPORARIES in the other major world blocs. And the enemy of these natives, the agency responsible for their impending doom, is their own political class - the very group whose plans you are supporting here.