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Thread: Why are Assyrians genetically closer to Iranians than they are to Saudis and Bedouins?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mashail View Post
    yes that is true
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia
    and here their genetics it is j2 native levantine gene unlike arab which is j1 dna which is native to arabia and north caucasus and Iraqi arabs and some Persians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#Genetic_studies
    lol, it would be super cool if i actually were quarter lebanese or 1/3. no wonder i look so ambigious XD i am part of so many cultures, i dont look quite arab, i dont look quite levantine (atleast i think so myself, i dont think i could pass there) i dont look quite berber, and i dont look quite african either its weird XD

    whilst everybody been saying i look egyptian and berber and arab i asked a Kabyle berber who's algerian on this forum and he said i didnt really look berber but rather levantine or arab. its weird really


    but yeah it'd definitely be cool to be part native levantine of which had nothing to do with arabs, explains my weird phenotype. Like i have MENA influence, but it isnt quite peninsular arab either lol so yeah.

    what do you think? you think i'd be able to pass in Lebanon or Jordan as a darker levantine?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    Exactly it's very difficult to know since many migration patterns and historical records are unknown. But the fact that they belong to the Syriac Churches and not the Greek or Maronite church is maybe telling that they are indeed possibly related to other Assyrians and are pred. Mesopotamian in origin.

    What does your family say btw? Are you the only one who actually cares enough to call yourself Assyrian?

    Btw I have some gedmatch kits of Syrian Christians from Southern Syria belonging to the Greek Orthodox church

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 48.35
    2 West_Asian 17.75
    3 Red_Sea 15.22
    4 West_Med 13.63
    5 East_Asian 1.46
    6 North_Atlantic 1.36
    7 Northeast_African 1.24
    8 Baltic 0.69
    9 Oceanian 0.3

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Samaritan 4.32
    2 Lebanese_Christian 4.33
    3 Palestinian 7.16
    4 Lebanese_Druze 7.8
    5 Jordanian 9.8
    6 Lebanese_Muslim 10.49
    7 Syrian 10.74
    8 Cyprian 11.86
    9 Bedouin 12.99
    10 Kurdish_Jewish 13.85
    11 Iranian_Jewish 14.53
    12 Tunisian_Jewish 14.67
    13 Libyan_Jewish 15.19
    14 Assyrian 16.91
    15 Egyptian 18.07
    16 Sephardic_Jewish 18.31
    17 Yemenite_Jewish 18.57
    18 Algerian_Jewish 19.03
    19 Italian_Jewish 19.19
    20 Georgian_Jewish 20.43

    They are very close to Samaritan Jews and Lebanese Christians although somewhat more SW Asian shifted. I hope some Christian Western Aramaic speakers get tested sometime soon, it would be interesting to see what people from Maaloula score like.
    My family never really cared for ethnic origin it's easier for them to stick with religious denominations, but when I ask, they throw in random groups that lived in Mesopotamia, eg. Babylonians, Sumerians, Arameans, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Arabs. They tend to avoid the Assyrian label as they think it is nearly always linked with being members of the Assyrian Church of the East and they consider them to be too ethno-centric. The Aramean label they might say but not in the same way that Tur Abdin Christians may espouse it, because they mainly take it that they were at one point aramaic-speaking. Chaldean label, they consider to belong to the Christians of the Nineveh Plains (because they speak 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic), and Maslawi Christians have always retained a special identity seperate. But ever since I started looking at migrations and DNA, I've managed to convince them that we are most probably migrants from the surrounding villages. To sum it up, they know that they are Mesopotamian in origin but in terms of modern populations they will tell you that they are Maslawi Christians. They are very proud of their town origin, and it is probably the first thing they will identify with.

    I've personally struggled in terms of identifying with an ethnic group, I know that ethnically I am definitely an indigenous Mesopotamian like any other member of a syriac church. However linguistically I am mainly 'arab,' and our culture may only differ significantly from muslim maslawis in terms of our retaining of the syriac tradition which is more due to religion. I got really into the aramean theory at one stage because of our Syriac Orthodox root, but then realized it was pretty much a Tur Abdin propaganda case. At the same time, I struggled with getting into assyrian nationalism because of the romanticism that I see in the movement. However, I believe that the assyrians of antiquity are probably the best candidates for the 'indigenous mesopotamian' in me.

    I think the remaining Western-Aramaic speakers would be levantine as they are Greek Christians and converts from Greek Christians. However, I definitely agree that their results would be some of the most interesting to explore. From looking roughly at historical records and Church literature, there seems to have been a shift from Syriac to Garshuni in the 1500s and then arabic started dominating texts in the 1800s. Missionaries reported that there were a huge amount of Maronites who continued to speak Western Aramaic till the 16th century and I've read the same for Copts and their barely surviving neo-coptic. I think there was a huge urbanization that occurred in the Middle East during the 1500s and this is what ultimately led to many groups losing their ancient tongues and picking up arabic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazarene View Post
    My family never really cared for ethnic origin it's easier for them to stick with religious denominations, but when I ask, they throw in random groups that lived in Mesopotamia, eg. Babylonians, Sumerians, Arameans, Chaldeans, Assyrians, Arabs. They tend to avoid the Assyrian label as they think it is nearly always linked with being members of the Assyrian Church of the East and they consider them to be too ethno-centric. The Aramean label they might say but not in the same way that Tur Abdin Christians may espouse it, because they mainly take it that they were at one point aramaic-speaking. Chaldean label, they consider to belong to the Christians of the Nineveh Plains (because they speak 'Chaldean' Neo-Aramaic), and Maslawi Christians have always retained a special identity seperate. But ever since I started looking at migrations and DNA, I've managed to convince them that we are most probably migrants from the surrounding villages. To sum it up, they know that they are Mesopotamian in origin but in terms of modern populations they will tell you that they are Maslawi Christians. They are very proud of their town origin, and it is probably the first thing they will identify with.
    As I expected. This is so cringy though, I've encountered this many times before from Assyrians from Mosul and Baghdad. I try to trigger them by asking "where is your family originally from? What village?". And they answer somewhat insulted that they've always been from the city and so have all of their ancestors
    They see themself as so much better than the village people to the point that they no longer identify as being from the same ethnic group, what a shame. This is not the case for the Hakkari Assyrians who take great pride in being from the mountains even though they were forced out of there 100 years ago.

    I've personally struggled in terms of identifying with an ethnic group, I know that ethnically I am definitely an indigenous Mesopotamian like any other member of a syriac church. However linguistically I am mainly 'arab,' and our culture may only differ significantly from muslim maslawis in terms of our retaining of the syriac tradition which is more due to religion. I got really into the aramean theory at one stage because of our Syriac Orthodox root, but then realized it was pretty much a Tur Abdin propaganda case. At the same time, I struggled with getting into assyrian nationalism because of the romanticism that I see in the movement. However, I believe that the assyrians of antiquity are probably the best candidates for the 'indigenous mesopotamian' in me.
    There's nothing to struggle about. The Church of the East Assyrians have kinda hijacked the Assyrian label and forces anyone who wants to identify with it to be hardcore cringy ethno-centric like many of them are. It's flag waving and living in the past 24/7.
    But there's also nothing wrong with having a sense of ethnic belonging and fighting for the survival of our own people, something many Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodox Assyrians are not in any way interested in. It's always the same kind of Stockholm syndrome answers when I ask my relatives why they are so keen on trying to make it work with our muslim neighbours despite the horrendous stuf happening yet today. I mean just a couple weeks ago both the mayors of Alqosh and Tel Kepe were kidnapped by Kurds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    As I expected. This is so cringy though, I've encountered this many times before from Assyrians from Mosul and Baghdad. I try to trigger them by asking "where is your family originally from? What village?". And they answer somewhat insulted that they've always been from the city and so have all of their ancestors
    They see themself as so much better than the village people to the point that they no longer identify as being from the same ethnic group, what a shame. This is not the case for the Hakkari Assyrians who take great pride in being from the mountains even though they were forced out of there 100 years ago.


    There's nothing to struggle about. The Church of the East Assyrians have kinda hijacked the Assyrian label and forces anyone who wants to identify with it to be hardcore cringy ethno-centric like many of them are. It's flag waving and living in the past 24/7.
    But there's also nothing wrong with having a sense of ethnic belonging and fighting for the survival of our own people, something many Chaldean Catholics and Syriac Orthodox Assyrians are not in any way interested in. It's always the same kind of Stockholm syndrome answers when I ask my relatives why they are so keen on trying to make it work with our muslim neighbours despite the horrendous stuf happening yet today. I mean just a couple weeks ago both the mayors of Alqosh and Tel Kepe were kidnapped by Kurds.
    Yes, I have heard of a lot of Assyrians who migrated to Mosul and Baghdad (20th century) who seem to be ashamed of being from whatever village they are from. I agree that it is super cringey for the original Maslawi Assyrians to be jumping labels all the time, and a good portion of them will try to deny at any cost a village-origin. We may have been a higher class than the others but everyone had to start somewhere before urbanization could occur. I honestly don't blame my fellow Maslawis because when you can't speak Neo-Aramaic and you have been living in Mosul for probably 500 years, you feel nearly no connection to the people outside of Mosul. Not all my family deny being related to the people of the Nineveh Plains and my aunty for instance told me that she considers us one people (ethnic group). However, she was hesitant to associate us with the mountain assyrians/nestorians and to be fair they look quite different to us phenotypically, as we are lighter and more coloured.

    Well me and my cousins take the piss out of those Church of the East Assyrians a lot because of their extreme nationalism. Reading about the roots of Assyrian nationalism I found out that many leaders who were Maslawis also supported it. Syriac Orthodox patriarch Barsoum I believe it was, and the man who sparked it off (through archaeological findings) Hormuzd Rassam, was also a Maslawi Christian. You're totally right that they hijacked it and gave all Assyrians a bad name.

    I think us Arabized Assyrians might not have as strong of a role and may have to preserve our own sub-group, however I'm definitely for preserving our people. I honestly have given up on the idea of preserving the culture in the homeland (God bless their efforts), muslims can turn on you at any point. I've heard that in Europe from my aunties there is a huge surge of cultural learning amongst Assyrians. On the other hand 'Chaldeans' in the US, seem to be assimilating in huge numbers and are losing their language very quickly. Are you suggesting an autonomous state?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazarene View Post
    Yes, I have heard of a lot of Assyrians who migrated to Mosul and Baghdad (20th century) who seem to be ashamed of being from whatever village they are from. I agree that it is super cringey for the original Maslawi Assyrians to be jumping labels all the time, and a good portion of them will try to deny at any cost a village-origin. We may have been a higher class than the others but everyone had to start somewhere before urbanization could occur. I honestly don't blame my fellow Maslawis because when you can't speak Neo-Aramaic and you have been living in Mosul for probably 500 years, you feel nearly no connection to the people outside of Mosul. Not all my family deny being related to the people of the Nineveh Plains and my aunty for instance told me that she considers us one people (ethnic group). However, she was hesitant to associate us with the mountain assyrians/nestorians and to be fair they look quite different to us phenotypically, as we are lighter and more coloured.
    I'm sorry but this is so retarded. Just because you are urban dwellers doesn't make you a totally different people. It's very weird, but hey atleast as far as I've seen many Maslawi Assyrians marry frequently with other Assyrians from the villages around. And then they are forced to atleast understand Syriac.
    Well me and my cousins take the piss out of those Church of the East Assyrians a lot because of their extreme nationalism. Reading about the roots of Assyrian nationalism I found out that many leaders who were Maslawis also supported it. Syriac Orthodox patriarch Barsoum I believe it was, and the man who sparked it off (through archaeological findings) Hormuzd Rassam, was also a Maslawi Christian. You're totally right that they hijacked it and gave all Assyrians a bad name.
    You should be proud that many Maslawi Assyrians participated in the Independence movement. Honestly look at our situation now, most of both my and your ancestors stayed neutral during the first world war and have ever since then worked for Muslims and tried to stabilize the relationship between them and us. And where has that gotten us? We both live in the Western world far away from Upper Mesopotamia, the overwhelming majority of all my close and distant relatives live either in Sweden or Australia. So whether we fought for our independence(like the Hakkari/Urmi Assyrians) or stayed neutral we're all in the same boat now. Atleast the Church of the East Assyrians have a strong sense of ethnic belonging and kept many unqiue cultural traits and don't have this sick Stockholm syndrome mentality towards Muslims like we do. That's atleast something in this day and age. Especially with you Nineveh plains Assyrians, how can you guys still not work for the greater good of our people after witnessing with your own eyes the destrucion by the hand of ISIS/radical Islam? I surely hope you are aware of how many regular Maslawi Arabs supported ISIS.
    I think us Arabized Assyrians might not have as strong of a role and may have to preserve our own sub-group, however I'm definitely for preserving our people. I honestly have given up on the idea of preserving the culture in the homeland (God bless their efforts), muslims can turn on you at any point. I've heard that in Europe from my aunties there is a huge surge of cultural learning amongst Assyrians. On the other hand 'Chaldeans' in the US, seem to be assimilating in huge numbers and are losing their language very quickly. Are you suggesting an autonomous state?
    I'm suggesting first and foremost an unified front where we focus on preserving our language and culture and work closer together. This seems hard enough with these corrupt churches popping up here and there. I left the Chaldean Catholic church several years ago, it makes me sick. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what Christianity has done for us throughout history, but it's 2018 we shouldn't be identifying by sect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aren View Post
    I'm sorry but this is so retarded. Just because you are urban dwellers doesn't make you a totally different people. It's very weird, but hey atleast as far as I've seen many Maslawi Assyrians marry frequently with other Assyrians from the villages around. And then they are forced to atleast understand Syriac.

    You should be proud that many Maslawi Assyrians participated in the Independence movement. Honestly look at our situation now, most of both my and your ancestors stayed neutral during the first world war and have ever since then worked for Muslims and tried to stabilize the relationship between them and us. And where has that gotten us? We both live in the Western world far away from Upper Mesopotamia, the overwhelming majority of all my close and distant relatives live either in Sweden or Australia. So whether we fought for our independence(like the Hakkari/Urmi Assyrians) or stayed neutral we're all in the same boat now. Atleast the Church of the East Assyrians have a strong sense of ethnic belonging and kept many unqiue cultural traits and don't have this sick Stockholm syndrome mentality towards Muslims like we do. That's atleast something in this day and age. Especially with you Nineveh plains Assyrians, how can you guys still not work for the greater good of our people after witnessing with your own eyes the destrucion by the hand of ISIS/radical Islam? I surely hope you are aware of how many regular Maslawi Arabs supported ISIS.

    I'm suggesting first and foremost an unified front where we focus on preserving our language and culture and work closer together. This seems hard enough with these corrupt churches popping up here and there. I left the Chaldean Catholic church several years ago, it makes me sick. Don't get me wrong I appreciate what Christianity has done for us throughout history, but it's 2018 we shouldn't be identifying by sect.
    Their patriotism for Mosul is the same that one has for Al Qosh or Hakkari, I agree with you that we are not a different people.

    I feel your pain, it's tragic that such a large number of Assyrians are now in the diaspora. I always hear that many of the Christians in Ankawa are just waiting for their opportunity to move to the west. They may have stayed neutral, I have even read accounts where the Christians of Mosul and the Nineveh Plains had voted for their inclusion into the Iraqi state, so it definitely was their doing. But even if Simele had not occurred, and the Church of the East Assyrians had won some kind of independence, do you really think that the neighbouring Muslims would not just take it as an excuse to invade and commit genocide on all of them anyways. Look how far the Kurds got in Iraqi Kurdistan and Baghdad will not allow any of it, I doubt we could have survived either way. Also, my family are very aware of the dangers of islam and they do not have any stockholm syndrome when it comes to the atrocities that muslims have carried through. Well I had family in Mosul who were evicted from their homes around the time of ISIS, they surely know how bad radical islam is. And yes, I do not trust the Maslawi Arabs at this stage, they've done too much to harm the Jews, Yazidis and Christians alike.

    https://philosproject.org/immigrant-...-sectarianism/
    This is a piece from one of the members of our community, she also argues against sectarianism. These churches are completely selfish and they do not care for the well-being of anyone but their dopey leaders. I'm personally non-denominational at this point, but I don't mind attending any syriac church. I'm assuming you're not a Christian anymore but I agree that we band together as one people.

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