Polish minority in Romania

[Peterski]

One Romanian user scores 5% Polish on 23andMe and asked me if it is possible to have Polish ancestry if you are from Romania.

So I'm opening this thread to talk about it. The answer is - of course it is possible.

There were at least 80,000 Poles in Bukovina and Bessarabia before WW2. Polish communities have lived in what is now Suceava District / Suceava County since the 1300s (when Casimir III was King of Poland). Later more Polish settlers came there in the 1700s-1800s.

Map of Bukovina region:



There were also Poles in Moldavia, apparently.

On Polish history forum we have a user with ancestors who were ethnic Poles in Moldavia:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?s...post&p=1616340

jako miejsce urodzenia miał wpisany Kiszyniów - obecnie stolica Mołdawii

^^^
She wrote that her maternal grandparent was born in Chișinău, today Moldavia's capital.

[Impaler]

In my opinion my father pass well in Poland. He looks Alpinid/Gorid.

[Genovefa]

Well...

Since it's on topic I could talk about my Polish great-great-grandfather, even if I don't know much about him. Not sure when he came, not sure if he had a family he took along with him. I'd ask to clarify things but I don't want to sound weird, asking things like that out of the blue. My father pretty much told me everything I know about that man, he seems to be fascinated with him. So what I know for sure is that he said he was a tall man, blonde with blue eyes, as to be expected. Apparently he was a "pan", some sort of little nobility?
Then I think my father went a bit far with theories about him being of German Jewish ancestry. He said Germans dumped their Jewish population in Poland and that Polish people, being in lack of nobles, gave them titles because they had money or something, and that afterwards my great-great-grandfather left because the Poles were going to turn against them as they were Jewish??? I mean, I did hear that Poles turned in Jewish people in WW2, but the rest?
In any case, it would make sense if he came in Romania in WW2 merely as a Polish person, I don't think he needed to be Jewish to flee Poland around that time. My brother told me Polish people would have been too proud to have Jewish nobles despite the considerable minority they were. But then again, perhaps he was wrong? Neither of us have much information about this.

I'd appreciate if you could make some comments about what I wrote if you want, Peterski (or any Polish person passing by), learning about my Polish ancestry would be great.

By the way, what you said about the location of Poles in Romania is interesting since I'm from Northern Romania, it adds up haha

[Peterski]

and that afterwards my great-great-grandfather left because the Poles were going to turn against them as they were Jewish??? I mean, I did hear that Poles turned in Jewish people in WW2, but the rest?

Add to this also "Nazis" from some ethnically ambiguous distant planet and we will have a nice fairy tale!:

In any case, it would make sense if he came in Romania in WW2 merely as a Polish person, I don't think he needed to be Jewish to flee Poland around that time.

Of course it would make sense. After the Soviet Invasion of Poland on 17.09.1939, the Polish Commander-in-chief ordered evacuation of remaining armed forces to neutral bordering countries. Poland had a border with Romania back in 1939. Many soldiers (and also civilians) were evacuated to Hungary and Romania (also many to Latvia and Lithuania). In total 30,000 soldiers (including 6,000 officers) and at least 26,000 civilians were evacuated to Romania in September 1939. The number of soldiers evacuated to Romania included 9,000 soldiers of the Polish Airforce. Was your great-great-grandfather a soldier or a civilian person?

Video showing Polish evacuation to Romania in 1939: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C9hsclWK9A

Then I think my father went a bit far with theories about him being of German Jewish ancestry.

I also think so.

But Jewish is possible because, of course, there were some Polish Jews in the Polish army. It should be very easy to find out with a DNA test.

German Jewish or Polish Jewish would show up as either "Jewish" (not as German) or as a mix of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean on any DNA test (because German Jews are not actually ethnically German or other Northern European, they are of 60% Middle Eastern + 40% Mediterranean origin).

Another thing about Ashkenazi Jews is that they are bottlenecked (descended from a small number of "founding fathers" several centuries ago). What it means is that even if you are just part Jewish, you will have many Jewish genetic relatives (cousins) after your upload your raw data to GEDmatch.

Basically all of Ashkenazi Jews are like one big, closely related, family, LOL.

So it is easy to find out if your ancestor was Jewish or ethnically Polish. If your father consents to be tested, I would recommend to test him, because he has 1/8 of this ancestry while you have 1/16 so it will be more dilluted. 1/8 will be easier to detect than 1/16 (though 1/16 is still significant).

[Peterski]

My father pretty much told me everything I know about that man, he seems to be fascinated with him. So what I know for sure is that he said he was a tall man, blonde with blue eyes, as to be expected. Apparently he was a "pan", some sort of little nobility?

Not any nobility! "Pan" just means "Mr./Sir" in Polish. When we talk to strangers we always use "Pan" (for men) and "Pani" (for women).

Unless someone is our friend, colleague or relative (and we know their name), we use "Pan/Pani" ("Sir/Madam") when addressing them.

One exception was Communist period when instead of "Pan/Pani" people used "Obywatelu" ("Citizen") or "Towarzyszu" ("Comrade").

=====

Something about Pan/Pani in the Polish language: https://blogs.transparent.com/polish/pan-and-pani/

^^^
They write that elderly people should be addressed per Pan/Pani, but in fact it applies to all strangers, not just to elderly people.

Then I think my father went a bit far with theories about him being of German Jewish ancestry. He said Germans dumped their Jewish population in Poland and that Polish people, being in lack of nobles, gave them titles because they had money or something

Germans expelled and/or exterminated most of their Jewish population during the Middle Ages (see the video lecture about it below):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlM2a2tsOM#t=3350

And yes, most of those Jews expelled from Germany later fled to Poland and found refuge here.

They did not become nobility though. Poland in lack of nobles? LOL. Poland had the largest % of nobility in Europe, maybe except for Hungary. In some regions (like Mazovia) 23% of the population was nobility (in other words, 1 in 4 people was a noble - but only in Mazovia, the average was closer to 8-10%, and in some regions 4-5%). Some Polish Jews (including Frankists, who converted to Catholicism) did intermarry with Polish nobility during the 1700s and 1800s though.

About Frankist Jews - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankism

There were also instances of nobilitation (promotion to noble status) of Jews, but they were always just a tiny fraction of entire Polish nobility.

So if your ancestor was indeed a noble, then it is actually less likely that he was Jewish, than in case of someone who was not a noble.

Probability of being Jewish for non-nobles in the Polish population in 1939 would be 8-10%, while for nobles a significantly lower percent.

The highest percentage of Jews among the population was in many small & medium towns, and that's not where the nobility usually lived.

[Genovefa]

Of course it would make sense. After the Soviet Invasion of Poland on 17.09.1939, the Polish Commander-in-chief ordered the evacuation of remaining forces to neutral bordering countries. Poland had a border with Romania back in 1939. Many soldiers (and also civilians) were evacuated to Hungary and Romania (also many to Latvia and Lithuania). In total 30,000 soldiers (including 6,000 officers) and at least 26,000 civilians were evacuated to Romania in September 1939. The number of soldiers evacuated to Romania included 9,000 soldiers of the Polish Airforce. Was your great-great-grandfather a soldier or a civilian person?

Video showing Polish evacuation to Romania in 1939: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C9hsclWK9A

I see, thanks for all the information! I'll definitely tell my father about this if he ever says that there were only Jews who left Poland in WW2 again.

But Jewish is possible because, of course, there were some Polish Jews in the Polish army. It should be very easy to find out with a DNA test.

German Jewish ancestry would show up as either "Jewish" (not as German) or as a mix of Middle Eastern and Mediterranean on any DNA test (because German Jews are not actually ethnically German or other Northern European, they are of 50% Middle Eastern + 50% Mediterranean origin).

Another thing about Ashkenazi Jews is that they are bottlenecked (descended from a small number of "founding fathers" several centuries ago). What it means is that even if you are just 1/8 Jewish, you will have a shitload of Jewish genetic cousins after your upload your raw data to GEDmatch.

So it is easy to find out if your ancestor was Jewish or ethnically Polish. If your father consents to be tested, I would recommend to test him, because he has 1/8 of this ancestry while you have 1/16 so it will be more dilluted. 1/8 will be easier to detect than 1/16 (though 1/16 is still significant).

I talked with him about DNA tests, the debates about his great-grandfather's origins is the thing that stirs my curiosity the most about it, haha. I'd be glad to prove him wrong as well since he kind of says everyone is Jewish ("all these French people you see while walking on the street aren't French but Jewish even if they don't look like it and I don't know them I'm telling you"), even though there is indeed a possibility of us having such origins. The thing is, he isn't willing to pay, he says 100 euros is too much for something you can't be certain to be right. He says that most of the time they're not doing any tests but only guesses based on your name, then they throw some amount of surprise origins in there to make you think it was worth taking the test, and also that only rich people afford making these tests because they buy a bunch of them from different companies and then verify what's in common about all of them.
But I'm going to try making my own money soon and he says I can do whatever I want with it, so I hope he's prepared to be taking a DNA test It's more for the fun in any case

[Genovefa]

Not any nobility! "Pan" just means "Mr./Sir" in Polish. When we talk to strangers we always use "Pan" (for men) and "Pani" (for women).

Unless someone is our friend, colleague or relative (and we know their name), we use "Pan/Pani" ("Sir/Madam") when addressing them.

One exception was Communist period when instead of "Pan/Pani" people used "Obywatelu" ("Citizen") or "Towarzyszu" ("Comrade").

=====

Something about Pan/Pani in the Polish language: https://blogs.transparent.com/polish/pan-and-pani/

^^^
They write that elderly people should be addressed per Pan/Pani, but in fact it applies to all strangers, not just to elderly people.

That's what a former Polish classmate of mine told me and what I've found on the internet when making researches about it too, but when I told this to my brother he made a connection with Romanian. Before "domn"/"domnitor" was used as a title for nobles and now it's also used as Mr/Sir, just to adress a man politely, that's why I was asking. But if "pan" was never used as a title for nobles that's where the confusion may have come from. My father told me he once got in touch with some of his relatives, other descendants from the Polish man, and they asked him if he wants to join them with searching the man's goods and that they were trying to take ownership of his mansions or something like that. Granted, my father may tell a lot of bullshit, but that thing isn't based on assumptions. So if he wasn't a noble he was at least some wealthy guy.

[B]Germans expelled and/or exterminated most of their Jewish population during the Middle Ages (see the video lecture about it below):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUlM2a2tsOM#t=3350

And yes, most of those Jews expelled from Germany later fled to Poland and found refuge here.

They did not become nobility though. Poland in lack of nobles? LOL. Poland had the largest % of nobility in Europe, maybe except for Hungary. In some regions (like Mazovia) 23% of the population was nobility (in other words, 1 in 4 people was a noble - but only in Mazovia, the average was closer to 8-10%, and in some regions 4-5%). Some Polish Jews (including Frankists, who converted to Catholicism) did intermarry with Polish nobility during the 1700s and 1800s though.

There were instances of nobilitation of Jews (promotion of Jews to noble status) but they were always just a tiny fraction of entire Polish nobility.

So if your ancestor was actually a noble, then it is actually less likely that he was Jewish, than in case of someone who was not a noble.

Probability of being Jewish for non-nobles in the Polish population in 1939 would be 8-10%, while for nobles a significantly lower percent.

The highest percentage of Jews among the population was in many small & medium towns, and that's not where the nobility usually lived.

Thank you again! This is yet again quite interesting information you've given me

[Peterski]

So what I know for sure is that he said he was a tall man, blonde with blue eyes, as to be expected.

I'm not saying there are no tall and blonde Jews with blue eyes, but these types are not common among them at all.

Just ask user Meerkat, she is our resident expert on Jewish phenotypes.

[RN97]

Throw those treacherous Polaks out of Romania for betraying Stephen the great.

[Peterski]

But if "pan" was never used as a title for nobles that's where the confusion may have come from.

Well, pan means Sir, which originates from a Medieval title for nobles. But later, this custom spread over entire population. So if people called someone pan in 1940, it just meant that he was a male, nothing more. But the origin of this term is indeed related to knights.

We can also say for example "pan na tym zamku" and it means "lord of this castle".

Pan has several meanings. From Polish Wiktionary:

https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/pan

(1.1) a salutation, equivalent of English Mr.; when directly addressing a male person, equivalent of pronoun "you"
(1.2) [basically another variant of 1.1 so I'm not translating it]
(1.3) feudal lord or landowner, also a magnate or a ruler
(1.4) employer for servants
(1.5) owner of slaves
(1.6) owner of a dog