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You don't need to be. That's just a title anyway.Originally Posted by blogen
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The r1a marker is an Indo-European Iranic marker not Turkic:The translations says: "For a run, for example, the typical result was the following: Z2123 was 68.8%, Z93 * 32.2%, and so on. [...] In the second step, 80% of the runs were Z2123, 10.8% in Z93 * and 6.2% in S23592, and in 2.2% in M780 the most likely candidate. That is, in the second step there was a clear choice, namely the Z2123."
So, Karachai-Malkars (Z2123) and Altai Turks (Z93*) are the closest matches with Hungarian royalty.
Very sad that this blog sees Karachai-Malkars as Indo-Iranian. Mental ignorance can even cause such errors.
Too bad they also used the manipulated non-scientific anti-Turkic Z93 map of eupedia, instead using the accurate map of Underhill et al. 2014/15.
"Haplogroup R1a, or haplogroup R-M420, is a human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup which is distributed in a large region in Eurasia, extending from Scandinavia and Central Europe to southern Siberia and South Asia.[3][2]
While R1a originated ca. 22,000[1] to 25,000[2] years ago, its subclade M417 (R1a1a1) diversified ca. 5,800 years ago.[4] The distribution of M417-subclades R1a-Z282 (including R1a-Z280)[5] in Central and Eastern Europe and R1a-Z93 in Asia[5][2] suggests that R1a1a diversified within the Eurasian Steppes or the Middle East and Caucasus region.[5] The place of origin of these subclades plays a role in the debate about the origins of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
The split of R1a (M420) is computed to ca. 22,000,[1] or 25,000[2] years ago, which is the time of the last glacial maximum. A large, 2014 study by Peter A. Underhill et al., using 16,244 individuals from over 126 populations from across Eurasia, concluded that there was compelling evidence that "the initial episodes of haplogroup R1a diversification likely occurred in the vicinity of present-day Iran."[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a
"Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers, the people who later called themselves 'Aryans' in the Rig Veda and the Avesta, originated in the Sintashta-Petrovka culture (2100-1750 BCE), in the Tobol and Ishim valleys, east of the Ural Mountains. It was founded by pastoralist nomads from the Abashevo culture (2500-1900 BCE), ranging from the upper Don-Volga to the Ural Mountains, and the Poltavka culture (2700-2100 BCE), extending from the lower Don-Volga to the Caspian depression.
The Sintashta-Petrovka culture, associated with R1a-Z93 and its subclades, was the first Bronze Age advance of the Indo-Europeans west of the Urals, opening the way to the vast plains and deserts of Central Asia to the metal-rich Altai mountains. The Aryans quickly expanded over all Central Asia, from the shores of the Caspian to southern Siberia and the Tian Shan, through trading, seasonal herd migrations, and looting raids.
Horse-drawn war chariots seem to have been invented by Sintashta people around 2100 BCE, and quickly spread to the mining region of Bactria-Margiana (modern border of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan and Afghanistan). Copper had been extracted intensively in the Urals, and the Proto-Indo-Iranians from Sintashta-Petrovka were exporting it in huge quantities to the Middle East. They appear to have been attracted by the natural resources of the Zeravshan valley for a Petrovka copper-mining colony was established in Tugai around 1900 BCE, and tin was extracted soon afterwards at Karnab and Mushiston. Tin was an especially valued resource in the late Bronze Age, when weapons were made of copper-tin alloy, stronger than the more primitive arsenical bronze. In the 1700's BCE, the Indo-Iranians expanded to the lower Amu Darya valley and settled in irrigation farming communities (Tazabagyab culture). By 1600 BCE, the old fortified towns of Margiana-Bactria were abandoned, submerged by the northern steppe migrants. The group of Central Asian cultures under Indo-Iranian influence is known as the Andronovo horizon, and lasted until 800 BCE.
The Indo-Iranian migrations progressed further south across the Hindu Kush. By 1700 BCE, horse-riding pastoralists had penetrated into Balochistan (south-west Pakistan). The Indus valley succumbed circa 1500 BCE, and the northern and central parts of the Indian subcontinent were taken over by 500 BCE. Westward migrations led Old Indic Sanskrit speakers riding war chariots to Assyria, where they became the Mitanni rulers from circa 1500 BCE. The Medes, Parthians and Persians, all Iranian speakers from the Andronovo culture, moved into the Iranian plateau from 800 BCE. Those that stayed in Central Asia are remembered by history as the Scythians, while the Yamna descendants who remained in the Pontic-Caspian steppe became known as the Sarmatians to the ancient Greeks and Romans.
The Indo-Iranian migrations have resulted in high R1a frequencies in southern Central Asia, Iran and the Indian subcontinent. The highest frequency of R1a (about 65%) is reached in a cluster around Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan and northern Afghanistan. In India and Pakistan, R1a ranges from 15 to 50% of the population, depending on the region, ethnic group and caste. R1a is generally stronger is the North-West of the subcontinent, and weakest in the Dravidian-speaking South (Tamil Nadu, Kerala, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh) and from Bengal eastward. Over 70% of the Brahmins (highest caste in Hindusim) belong to R1a1, due to a founder effect.
Maternal lineages in South Asia are, however, overwhelmingly pre-Indo-European. For instance, India has over 75% of "native" mtDNA M and R lineages and 10% of East Asian lineages. In the residual 15% of haplogroups, approximately half are of Middle Eastern origin. Only about 7 or 8% could be of "Russian" (Pontic-Caspian steppe) origin, mostly in the form of haplogroup U2 and W (although the origin of U2 is still debated). European mtDNA lineages are much more common in Central Asia though, and even in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan. This suggests that the Indo-European invasion of India was conducted mostly by men through war. The first major settlement of Indo-Aryan women was in northern Pakistan, western India (Punjab to Gujarat) and northern India (Uttar Pradesh), where haplogroups U2 and W are the most common today."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...l#Indo-Iranian
R1a map:
https://cache.eupedia.com/images/con...ration_map.jpg
https://bladehoner.files.wordpress.c...tion.jpg?w=676
Turks originated from totally different place:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qim...3996a7dc2b229e
Just because you conquered and assimilated the central asian Indo-Iranians that does not mean the r1a type is Turkic...
Béla's genetic result is clearly shows his Iranic origin.
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Indo-european invasion of central Asia and northern India is just a hypothesis and fictitious, nothing ever proven about it thus far. You cannot make proper science with pre-accepted fairy tales and this only lead to misguidance, this is what western science is doing in historical studies. Turkic hegamony ruled over central Asia and northern India until 800s and their heritage is still there. Even Klyosov accepts that the origin of R1a is unknown so it is assumed to be indo-european while he asserts that R1b is the haplogroup of Turkic speaking peoples
Just because some indo-iranians appeared on central Asia and northern India doesnt mean the original people there was indo-european lol. Almos, Arpad and their heir were Turkic and this is widely and academically accepted. You are always referring to non-scientific wiki and sided geneaology sites like eupedia only, I suggest you follow some latest articles and books published recently
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You are an idiot. Another history thief with your "scientific" nationalist turkis propaganda. Central Asians were Indo-Iranians before the turkic migration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta
Turan is an iranian word, the original turanians (central asians) were iranic peoples:
"Turan (Persian: توران Tūrān, "the land of the Tur") is a historical region in Central Asia. The term is of Iranian origin[1][2] and may refer to a particular prehistoric human settlement, a historic geographical region, or a culture. The original Turanians were an Iranian[3][4][5] tribe of the Avestan age.
The oldest existing mention of Turan is in the Farvardin yashts, which are in the Young Avestan language and have been dated by linguists to approximately 2300 BCE.[13] According to Gherardo Gnoli, the Avesta contains the names of various tribes who lived in proximity to each other: "the Airyas [Aryans], Tuiryas [Turanians], Sairimas [Sarmatians], Sainus [Ashkuns] and Dahis [Dahae]".[14] In the hymns of the Avesta, the adjective Tūrya is attached to various enemies of Zoroastrism like Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb). The word occurs only once in the Gathas, but 20 times in the later parts of the Avesta. The Tuiryas as they were called in Avesta play a more important role in the Avesta than the Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis. Zoroaster himself hailed from the Airya people but he also preached his message to other neighboring tribes.[14][15]
According to Mary Boyce, in the Farvardin Yasht, "In it (verses 143–144) are praised the fravashis of righteous men and women not only among the Aryas (as the "Avestan" people called themselves), but also among the Turiyas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis; and the personal names, like those of the people, all seem Iranian character".[16] Hostility between Tuirya and Airya is indicated also in the Farvardtn Yast (vv. 37-8), where the Fravashis of the Just are said to have provided support in battle against the Danus, who appear to be a clan of the Tura people.[17] Thus in the Avesta, some of the Tuiryas believed in the message of Zoroaster while others rejected the religion.
Similar to the ancient homeland of Zoroaster, the precise geography and location of Turan is unknown.[18] In post-Avestan traditions they were thought to inhabit the region north of the Oxus, the river separating them from the Iranians. Their presence accompanied by incessant wars with the Iranians, helped to define the latter as a distinct nation, proud of their land and ready to spill their blood in its defense.[19] The common names of Turanians in Avesta and Shahnameh include Frarasyan,[20] Aghraethra,[21] Biderafsh,[22] Arjaspa[23] Namkhwast.[22] The names of Iranian tribes including those of the Turanians that appear in Avesta have been studied by Manfred Mayrhofer in his comprehensive book on Avesta personal name etymologies.[24]
Some linguists derive the word from the Indo-Iranian root *tura- "strong, quick, sword(Pashto)", Pashto turan (thuran) "swordsman". Others link it to old Iranian *tor "dark, black", related to the New Persian tār(ik), Pashto tor (thor), and possibly English dark. In this case, it is a reference to the "dark civilization" of Central Asian nomads in contrast to the "illuminated" Zoroastrian civilization of the settled Ārya."
About turks:
"The continuation of nomadic invasions on the north-eastern borders in historical times kept the memory of the Turanians alive.[19] After the 6th century the Turks, who had been pushed westward by other tribes, became neighbours of Iran and were identified with the Turanians.[19][26] The identification of the Turanians with the Turks was a late development, possibly made in the early 7th century; the Turks first came into contact with the Iranians only in the 6th century.[20]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan
"Even Klyosov accepts that the origin of R1a is unknown so it is assumed to be indo-european while he asserts that R1b is the haplogroup of Turkic speaking peoples"
R1a and r1b are all Indo-Euroepan markers:
"R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Proto-Indo-European tribes, who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic people. The Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Yamna culture (3300-2500 BCE). Their dramatic expansion was possible thanks to an early adoption of bronze weapons and the domestication of the horse in the Eurasian steppes (circa 4000-3500 BCE). Individuals from the southern part of the Steppe are believed to have carried predominantly lineages belonging to haplogroup R1b (L23 and subclades), while the people of northern forest-steppe to the north would have belonged essentially to haplogroup R1a. The first expansion of the forest-steppe people occured with the Corded Ware Culture (see Germanic branch below). The migration of the R1b people to central and Western Europe left a vacuum in the southern steppe, which was filled by the R1a-dominant tribes with the expansion of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200 BCE). The forest-steppe origin of this culture is obvious from the usage of corded pottery and the abundant use of polished battle axes, the two most prominent features of the Corded Ware culture. This is also probably the time when the satemisation process of the Indo-European languages began, considering that the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian language groups belong to the same Satem isogloss and both appear to have evolved from the the Catacomb culture."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
About r1b, that's middle eastern:
"Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (26,500-19,000 years ago). This haplogroup has been identified in the remains of a 24,000 year-old boy from the Altai region, in south-central Siberia (Raghavan et al. 2013). This individual belonged to a tribe of mammoth hunters that may have roamed across Siberia and parts of Europe during the Paleolithic. Autosomally this Paleolithic population appears to have contributed mostly to the ancestry of MODERN EUROPEANS and SOUTH ASIANS, the two regions where haplogroup R also happens to be the most common nowadays (R1b in Western Europe, R1a in Eastern Europe, Central and South Asia, and R2 in South Asia).
The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Béla have Iranic origin not turkic. The native Turkic haplogroup is Q:
"Many of clades of haplogroup Q1a are believed to have been brought by the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks, who all originated in the Altai region and around modern Mongolia. Haplogroup Q has been identified in Iron Age remains from Hunnic sites in Mongolia by Petkovski et al. (2006) and in Xinjiang by Kang et al. (2013). Modern Mongols belong to various subclades of Q1a, including by order of frequency Q1a2a1c (L330), Q1a1a1 (M120), Q1a1b (M25) and Q1a2a2 (YP4004)."
"Almos, Arpad and their heir were Turkic and this is widely and academically accepted."
No but the turks were Mongols from Mongolia, European are turks, africans are turks, american indians are turks, Adolf Hitler was turk, the tree frogs are turks, Darth Vader is turk just like the amoebas, everyone is Turkic and this is widely and academically accepted
"You are always referring to non-scientific wiki and sided geneaology sites like eupedia only"
You have any source so what do you want? The Turkic nationalist blogs are better scientific "proof"?
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Guys stop stealing other peoples identities. It's wrong.
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Nice try, Underhill et al. 2015: R1a clearly Turkic sweetheart
No need for anti-Turkic sentiments from eupedia and wikipedia. Finno-Ugric doesn't even exist.
It rather shows you have a mental illness called "sockpuppet-blogenoid".
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Hakan please stop spreading your pseudo-scientific, fringe complo theory shits.
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Who are you? Do you have any other hobbies than self-hating trolling?
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You are a fucking maniac. Keep reading Osman Çataloluk.
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Hello Mr. anonymous sockpuppet.You are an idiot. Another history thief with your "scientific" nationalist turkis propaganda. Central Asians were Indo-Iranians before the turkic migration:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronovo_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta
Turan is an iranian word, the original turanians (central asians) were iranic peoples:
"Turan (Persian: توران Tūrān, "the land of the Tur") is a historical region in Central Asia. The term is of Iranian origin[1][2] and may refer to a particular prehistoric human settlement, a historic geographical region, or a culture. The original Turanians were an Iranian[3][4][5] tribe of the Avestan age.
The oldest existing mention of Turan is in the Farvardin yashts, which are in the Young Avestan language and have been dated by linguists to approximately 2300 BCE.[13] According to Gherardo Gnoli, the Avesta contains the names of various tribes who lived in proximity to each other: "the Airyas [Aryans], Tuiryas [Turanians], Sairimas [Sarmatians], Sainus [Ashkuns] and Dahis [Dahae]".[14] In the hymns of the Avesta, the adjective Tūrya is attached to various enemies of Zoroastrism like Fraŋrasyan (Shahnameh: Afrāsīāb). The word occurs only once in the Gathas, but 20 times in the later parts of the Avesta. The Tuiryas as they were called in Avesta play a more important role in the Avesta than the Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis. Zoroaster himself hailed from the Airya people but he also preached his message to other neighboring tribes.[14][15]
According to Mary Boyce, in the Farvardin Yasht, "In it (verses 143–144) are praised the fravashis of righteous men and women not only among the Aryas (as the "Avestan" people called themselves), but also among the Turiyas, Sairimas, Sainus and Dahis; and the personal names, like those of the people, all seem Iranian character".[16] Hostility between Tuirya and Airya is indicated also in the Farvardtn Yast (vv. 37-8), where the Fravashis of the Just are said to have provided support in battle against the Danus, who appear to be a clan of the Tura people.[17] Thus in the Avesta, some of the Tuiryas believed in the message of Zoroaster while others rejected the religion.
Similar to the ancient homeland of Zoroaster, the precise geography and location of Turan is unknown.[18] In post-Avestan traditions they were thought to inhabit the region north of the Oxus, the river separating them from the Iranians. Their presence accompanied by incessant wars with the Iranians, helped to define the latter as a distinct nation, proud of their land and ready to spill their blood in its defense.[19] The common names of Turanians in Avesta and Shahnameh include Frarasyan,[20] Aghraethra,[21] Biderafsh,[22] Arjaspa[23] Namkhwast.[22] The names of Iranian tribes including those of the Turanians that appear in Avesta have been studied by Manfred Mayrhofer in his comprehensive book on Avesta personal name etymologies.[24]
Some linguists derive the word from the Indo-Iranian root *tura- "strong, quick, sword(Pashto)", Pashto turan (thuran) "swordsman". Others link it to old Iranian *tor "dark, black", related to the New Persian tār(ik), Pashto tor (thor), and possibly English dark. In this case, it is a reference to the "dark civilization" of Central Asian nomads in contrast to the "illuminated" Zoroastrian civilization of the settled Ārya."
About turks:
"The continuation of nomadic invasions on the north-eastern borders in historical times kept the memory of the Turanians alive.[19] After the 6th century the Turks, who had been pushed westward by other tribes, became neighbours of Iran and were identified with the Turanians.[19][26] The identification of the Turanians with the Turks was a late development, possibly made in the early 7th century; the Turks first came into contact with the Iranians only in the 6th century.[20]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan
"Even Klyosov accepts that the origin of R1a is unknown so it is assumed to be indo-european while he asserts that R1b is the haplogroup of Turkic speaking peoples"
R1a and r1b are all Indo-Euroepan markers:
"R1a is thought to have been the dominant haplogroup among the northern and eastern Proto-Indo-European tribes, who evolved into the Indo-Iranian, Thracian, Baltic and Slavic people. The Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in the Yamna culture (3300-2500 BCE). Their dramatic expansion was possible thanks to an early adoption of bronze weapons and the domestication of the horse in the Eurasian steppes (circa 4000-3500 BCE). Individuals from the southern part of the Steppe are believed to have carried predominantly lineages belonging to haplogroup R1b (L23 and subclades), while the people of northern forest-steppe to the north would have belonged essentially to haplogroup R1a. The first expansion of the forest-steppe people occured with the Corded Ware Culture (see Germanic branch below). The migration of the R1b people to central and Western Europe left a vacuum in the southern steppe, which was filled by the R1a-dominant tribes with the expansion of the Catacomb culture (2800-2200 BCE). The forest-steppe origin of this culture is obvious from the usage of corded pottery and the abundant use of polished battle axes, the two most prominent features of the Corded Ware culture. This is also probably the time when the satemisation process of the Indo-European languages began, considering that the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian language groups belong to the same Satem isogloss and both appear to have evolved from the the Catacomb culture."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1a_Y-DNA.shtml
About r1b, that's middle eastern:
"Haplogroup R* originated in North Asia just before the Last Glacial Maximum (26,500-19,000 years ago). This haplogroup has been identified in the remains of a 24,000 year-old boy from the Altai region, in south-central Siberia (Raghavan et al. 2013). This individual belonged to a tribe of mammoth hunters that may have roamed across Siberia and parts of Europe during the Paleolithic. Autosomally this Paleolithic population appears to have contributed mostly to the ancestry of MODERN EUROPEANS and SOUTH ASIANS, the two regions where haplogroup R also happens to be the most common nowadays (R1b in Western Europe, R1a in Eastern Europe, Central and South Asia, and R2 in South Asia).
The oldest forms of R1b (M343, P25, L389) are found dispersed at very low frequencies from Western Europe to India, a vast region where could have roamed the nomadic R1b hunter-gatherers during the Ice Age. The three main branches of R1b1 (R1b1a, R1b1b, R1b1c) all seem to have stemmed from the Middle East. The southern branch, R1b1c (V88), is found mostly in the Levant and Africa. The northern branch, R1b1a (P297), seems to have originated around the Caucasus, eastern Anatolia or northern Mesopotamia, then to have crossed over the Caucasus, from where they would have invaded Europe and Central Asia. R1b1b (M335) has only been found in Anatolia."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplo...1b_Y-DNA.shtml
Béla have Iranic origin not turkic. The native Turkic haplogroup is Q:
"Many of clades of haplogroup Q1a are believed to have been brought by the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks, who all originated in the Altai region and around modern Mongolia. Haplogroup Q has been identified in Iron Age remains from Hunnic sites in Mongolia by Petkovski et al. (2006) and in Xinjiang by Kang et al. (2013). Modern Mongols belong to various subclades of Q1a, including by order of frequency Q1a2a1c (L330), Q1a1a1 (M120), Q1a1b (M25) and Q1a2a2 (YP4004)."
"Almos, Arpad and their heir were Turkic and this is widely and academically accepted."
No but the turks were Mongols from Mongolia, European are turks, africans are turks, american indians are turks, Adolf Hitler was turk, the tree frogs are turks, Darth Vader is turk just like the amoebas, everyone is Turkic and this is widely and academically accepted
"You are always referring to non-scientific wiki and sided geneaology sites like eupedia only"
You have any source so what do you want? The Turkic nationalist blogs are better scientific "proof"?
F. Altheim "Das alte Iran" writes that Iranian Avesta's most archaic texts, Gathas, are still not understood by today's linguists. 600 B.C. - R. Stiehlel writes, it is quite obvious that language of old Avesta is closely tied to ancient Altaic languages. Since newcomers to Iran joined older settled inhabitants often associated with Scythians, Türks and Finno-Ugrians, and borrowed much.
Franz Altheim and Ruth Stiehl, Geschichte Mittelasiens im Altertum (Berlin, 1970).
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