Will Western-style-Feminism survive the night?

[Austin]

In a more broader question, will and or can Western-style-Feminism and Western-style women's-rights survive the proverbial night with rising global Islamic-Muslim and African-Asian populations along with declining Christian/Western/White populations globally speaking, even in the West itself?

Will we see more articles like these in the future of the West? Will women be driving in London in a hundred years? Will they even be working? Will the remaining white males side with the rising masses of Arab/African/Asian socially-conservative males and oust Feminists and undo women's rights? What do you think>?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12970105

Has feminism blocked social mobility for men?

Comments (62)

Continue reading the main story


Feminism provided an obstacle to social mobility for working-class men, Cabinet minister David Willetts has controversially argued. But is he right?
They were meant to welcome a new era of fairness and opportunity for all. Instead, a minister's remarks have prompted debate over the effect of women's entry into higher education and the professions.
In a briefing to journalists ahead of the government's social mobility strategy, David Willetts, the universities minister, appeared to suggest that feminism had made it harder for working-class men to get ahead in life.
Asked what was to blame for a lack of social mobility, the Daily Telegraph quoted him saying: "The feminist revolution in its first-round effects was probably the key factor.
"Feminism trumped egalitarianism. It is not that I am against feminism, it's just that is probably the single biggest factor."
His remarks sparked a wave of criticism, and Mr Willetts made it clear that he supported the move of women into the workplace and higher education. But to some the notion that more jobs for females equals fewer opportunities for males will be a convincing one.
Continue reading the main story An economist's view


Alan Manning, professor of economics, LSE
"The expansion of university education was faster among women - they went from being a minority of students to a majority.
"But it's not true that if one group takes something, there's automatically less for the other.
"The deterioration in employment opportunities among young men was primarily the consequence of the decline in manufacturing.
"It's not the case that all these apprenticeships were suddenly taken by lots of young women. It's that the manufacturing jobs just weren't there anymore."

Certainly, there is no question that the number of female workers in the UK has increased significantly over the past four decades.
Labour Force Survey estimates suggest that the employment rate for women aged 16 to 59 rose from 56% in 1971 to 73% in 2004.
Whereas in 1971 there were nine million women over the age of 16 in work, by 2004 that figure stood at 13 million.
At the same time, social mobility for men appears to have fallen back over the same period.
According to the government's own social mobility strategy, the proportion of males born in 1958, with parents who were in the bottom fifth of earners, moving upwards was 70%. For those born in 1970, the figure was 62%.
In 2008-09, 51% of young women entered higher education, according to figures released earlier this year by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, compared with 40% of young men.
It was the first time more than half of women went on to higher education - 20 years previously, only about one in five young women went into higher education and a decade prior to that it was about one in 10.
It is figures like these that may have led Mr Willetts to conclude that greater opportunities for women have resulted in fewer for men.
Continue reading the main story Mind the gap

• The 2010 gender pay divide, which was the closest since figures started in 1997, showed UK men took home 10% more pay than their female counterparts
• The Office for National Statistics data shows that, in April 2010, the UK workforce was made up of 12.7 million men and 12.3 million women.
• However, work patterns were vastly different between the sexes. Some 88% of men worked full-time, but only 58% of women worked full-time
• Women tended to have lower hourly rates of pay in general, the figures show

Rod Liddle, the son of a train driver who has risen to become a prominent journalist, says he does not like the manner in which the minister made his point. And Liddle insists the move of women into the workplace was just and correct.
But he says such statistics demonstrate that the arrival of middle-class women in large numbers into the universities and professions has restricted the prospects for men with working-class backgrounds.
"The move of women into the workplace is absolutely right - it should be guaranteed," he says.
"But what Willetts said in down-the-line, factual terms is right. It annoys me when the left refuse to accept that it's harder for men or that the process has had an effect on the family. That doesn't mean it was wrong."
Of course, the number of job opportunities on offer and the nature of the labour market did not stand still as women began to make up a greater proportion of the labour force.
As a result, many academics regard such an interpretation of the data as simplistic.
Men used to achieve social mobility by rising through the factory ranks
Karen Mumford, professor of economics at the University of York, says it is "woolly-minded" to assume that the number of job opportunities has remained static.
In the days before feminism, she says, those working-class men who achieved upward social mobility tended to do so by moving through the ranks at their workplace.
But, Prof Mumford adds, the decline in manufacturing - which traditionally was a source of better-paid jobs for a predominantly male workforce - has meant that these opportunities are no longer available.
The number of jobs in manufacturing fell to 2.5 million in 2010, according to figures from business organisation, the Confederation of British Industry (CBI). This is equal to just 9% of the total workforce. In 1978 over seven million people were employed in the sector, equal to 28.5% of the workforce.
She points out, additionally, that the rise in the proportion of women attending higher education mirrored a huge increase in the number of places available for both genders. Government figures show an all-time high of 45% of young people going to university in 2008-09 compared with only about one in 20 in the early 1960s.
As a result, Prof Mumford says, there was never a pre-feminist golden age in which large numbers of working-class men attended universities.
Continue reading the main story A feminist for Willetts

Janice Turner, Times columnist
"I don't like to defend government ministers.
"But I don't think David Willetts was saying feminism is wrong or evil.
"It's not about social mobility per se. What's happened is that middle-class parents aren't just getting their sons into university, they're now getting their daughters in as well.
"That's just a fact. We need to have a clearer debate about these things. The issue needs to be unpicked."

"It was very rare then and it's very rare now," she says. "They are not competing. The problem isn't feminism.
"What's happened is that those middle-income working class jobs with which a man used to be able to keep a family have disappeared, while the number of lower-skill service sector jobs, which women have always tended to do, has expanded."
She acknowledges that the number of better-paid "problem-solving" occupations at the top of the income scale which require a university education have increased, but that this has benefited male and female workers alike.
Moreover, feminists would point to the fact that men in the UK took home 10% more pay than their female colleagues in 2010, according to the Office for National Statistics.
Kate Saunders, feminist writer and novelist, says the idea that greater female participation in the workforce is to blame for a decline in male social mobility ignores the large numbers of women working in badly paid service sector jobs that many men don't want.
"So many things have changed, not just the number of women in the workplace," she says.
"Years ago many working-class men used to work in the factory at the bottom of their street, it just doesn't happen like that anymore and that's not the fault of women. They aren't to blame for things like the decline of the manufacturing industry in this country."
But as long as there is a debate over social mobility, there will also be debate about the repercussions of feminism.

[Susi]

In a more broader question, will and or can Western-style-Feminism and Western-style women's-rights survive the proverbial night with rising global Islamic-Muslim and African-Asian populations along with declining Christian/Western/White populations globally speaking, even in the West itself?

I don't think that there is a Western-style feminism as such, but I think feminism will survive changing demographics. Like all "isms' its definition is constantly shifting.

Will we see more articles like these in the future of the West? Will women be driving in London in a hundred years? Will they even be working? Will the remaining white males side with the rising masses of Arab/African/Asian socially-conservative males and oust Feminists and undo women's rights? What do you think>?

Many women will still be driving, I think. Not me, since I don't want to learn. Will people be driving at all I think is a better question.

Yes, women will still be working, the economy would collapse without their labour, both free (in the home) and employed. Unless there's a root change at society which I don't anticipate.

I don't see Arab/African/Asians as socially-conservative most of the time, to be totally honest.

I can understand your perspective, though.

In terms of social mobility for working class men (that article I didn't bother to quote), it's more a change in the nature of industry than the entry of women into the workforce. The jobs now are high-touch jobs really, which encompass traditionally 'feminine' traits such as caring, cooking, serving, etc. These kind of traits and job-requirements clash with the traditional working class male identity, which itself is changing to reflect changes in industrial location.

[Birka]

In the US, the feminist movement is a sham. It is just another arm of the left wing liberal-socialists. The movement does not care an iota about any female that is not a leftist.

They loved Slick Willie Clinton, despite all the rape charges leveled against him. the media went after any woman who accused Clinton like a hungry wolfpack, and the received no support from the feminists.

The media absolutely destroys Sarah Palin and her daughters, and not a squeak from a feminist.

The real funny part is that the democrat party let them down. They could of had Hillary as the presidential candidate in 2008, but the party gave the nod to some unknown, 2 year senator get the ticket.

[Eldritch]

In a more broader question, will and or can Western-style-Feminism and Western-style women's-rights survive the proverbial night with rising global Islamic-Muslim and African-Asian populations along with declining Christian/Western/White populations globally speaking, even in the West itself?

In its current form? No, I don't think so. It's doomed one way or other other.

Islamization/Negrification of Europe = end of women's rights and feminism.

Non-Islamization/non-negrification of Europe = requires European men and women working together, not against each other.

[Adalwolf]

I sincerely hope that feminism will be decimated soon. And not by way of Islamization, although that is sadly looking like the realistic outcome. The genders need to return to traditional roles, if the western family structure is going to have any real hope.

[Austin]

I don't think that there is a Western-style feminism as such, but I think feminism will survive changing demographics. Like all "isms' its definition is constantly shifting.



Many women will still be driving, I think. Not me, since I don't want to learn. Will people be driving at all I think is a better question.

Yes, women will still be working, the economy would collapse without their labour, both free (in the home) and employed. Unless there's a root change at society which I don't anticipate.

I don't see Arab/African/Asians as socially-conservative most of the time, to be totally honest.

I can understand your perspective, though.

In terms of social mobility for working class men (that article I didn't bother to quote), it's more a change in the nature of industry than the entry of women into the workforce. The jobs now are high-touch jobs really, which encompass traditionally 'feminine' traits such as caring, cooking, serving, etc. These kind of traits and job-requirements clash with the traditional working class male identity, which itself is changing to reflect changes in industrial location.

Yeah okay I understand this argument because it is true, the Western-industrial-sector is largely a thing of the past. Modern jobs are more feminine-friendly in the West today. Most work is clerical and or phone related, two areas where the more sociable sex is going to be more desirable. There is an irony to this which is that men still control the working world, which (I have seen this clearly at my job) demonstrates that males prefer to have females working for them rather than males, which leaves the average white male in a terrible economic situation. (I'll have some interesting stories to tell about my time in the financial sector later yet needless to say corporate males much prefer having female underlings over male underlings and race plays a huge factor here as well).


Yet having taken note of this reality, the numerical Western population realities of today aren't negated one bit by the above. Yes it is true, the West is rolling on with it's feminisation and economic/personal freedoms of women but this has created in inescapable doom for the West. To sum up the modern West this is an accurate generalization: 'Childless, single, superficial, economically-free, void, consumerist, unsustainable'.



How can white Western women expect to maintain their rights and equality when the tens of millions of illiberal black/Arab/Asian/Mestizo/Indio people begin to have political power through voting? All women's rights in the West will be curtailed within 20 years of minority politics. No Austin you are wrong the large white liberal populations won't allow that to happen! WHAT LARGE WHITE LIBERAL POPULATIONS???!?!? In the future no such demographic exists! The future demographic readout of the Western world will look something like 40%-declining-white and 60% non-white-and-rising. I am sorry I don't buy for ten seconds that the conservative pan-Arab-Islamic politicians that will wield massive power in European politics in my lifetime will care all that much about protecting the rights of white-secular-European-women. Remember their men need jobs, and guess who's jobs they're going to be taking? Not the remaining few European males, oh no, those guys will be with the other side. It will be the European woman that will lose out worst on a global level in the future, not ironically, the European man, as he will be brokering deals with those who now dominate the West. It is the woman, the one they won't respect and will see as a privileged brat, it is she that will suffer most in the future of the West to the rising chauvinistic minorities.

A wall defender who became so drunk that his section of wall is left undefended so that as he awakes from his slumber it begins to dawn on him....... his force is slaughtered, he now resides in a foreign kingdom, and the very liquor he was drunk on is now forbidden and those who sold it to him dangling from trees alight with flame.

[Sally]

Original feminists, authentic feminists, like Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony, were abolitionists and suffragettes, and they supported family and motherhood.

These early feminists fought for the abolition of slavery, equality under the law regarding property and ownership, the right to vote and work and the abolition of child labour. What feminism has turned into is vile, and the original feminists would be probably turning in their graves to see how it has been perverted.

[Jake Featherston]

One way or another, Feminism is doomed in the medium-to-long term. Either it will be dispelled by a resurgent West, or it will be mercilessly crushed by the successors of the West.

Either way, its demise will not be an occassion for mourning.

[AussieScott]

Looking at places like India and Pakistan, feminism survives in the upper class, or high castes. As they value education of women which leads to affluent elite stable families, who end up being the ruling class in all institutions. Being they are a minority, having families and children becomes a survivalist task.

In the west I think radical feminism of the unisex kind will die a slow painful death, and the traditionalist people of all classes who respect women will survive into the future.

We live in interesting times that is for sure.

[Albion]

Feminism will die out with the ageing die-hard feminists because holding such stupid views I highly doubt that many of them would breed... a few reasons...

1. penetration would be male domination! Evil men at it again!
2. Most of them aren't exactly lookers are they?
3. Any man in his right mind would stay the hell away from these female supremacists.

No doubt it will probably keep resurfacing every time a woman gets a bee in her bonnet over what some bloke has done, but it is an ailing movement I think.
Women have no need for such petty movements now, only a few miserable old women still cling to it.