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Thread: J2b2-L283 and Ilyrian colonisation of the Balkans

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    Illyrians were not fresh arrivals from the steppe, the culture formed in Central Europe from local Bronze age cultures and from there spread,including to Balkans.
    Secondly, as Coon noted not all Halstatt burials can be attributed to Illyrians.
    R1B-l23 was the dominant ydna among flat headed Bell Beakers and these can't be associated with illyrians as they were found everywere in Europe after Bronze Age, especially in high grounds/mountains
    Illyrians have been conquered by the romans yet only albanians today carry these ydna's.
    And for EV13 it pretty much has no link with illyrians, same as G it was neolitic marker millenials before them, and these markers were after Bronze Age a very small minority, it being high in Albania and Kosovo is a recent thing.

    This culture arose in central Europe,..., sometime shortly after the beginning of the first millennium B.C. It developed out of local Bronze Age origins carried over from the Urnfiels, and in turn from Aunjetitz...Still, whatever the complexity of archaeological detail, the Hallstatt civilization may be considered primarily the work of the indigenous central European population, with little if any accretions.
    It would be foolish to claim that every site with Hallstatt cultural remains carries the bones or ashes of Illyrian speakers. This may only with certainty be asserted for the central area, and for the regions immediately adjacent, while in the west it is fairly certain that some of the peoples in a Hallstatt level of culture were actually Kelts...
    ...The Hallstatt crania from Austria, including those from the type site itself, form a reasonably homogeneous, entirely long-headed group. 16 (See Appendix I, col. 32.) This group is the legitimate, local successor to the Aunjetitz, ... Morphologically, as well as metrically, most of these skulls may without difficulty be designated as "Nordic"; ...The similarity between Hallstatt and Germanic crania is a commonplace; and if the Reihengrber people were "Nordic", as is generally conceded, then so, in all likelihood, were the Hallstatt people.
    The significance of this double continuity is great. It traces the Nordic racial type, in skeletal form, back to the Early Iron Age, and derives this with little alteration from the preceding Age of Bronze. The Bronze Age population which was thus the ancestral Nordic one....
    Let us turn to the specific problem of the Illyrian racial composition.Let us turn to the specific problem of the Illyrian racial composition. So far, we have been dealing entirely with the Hallstatt remains from Lower Austria. The Hallstatt cemetery itself dates from the middle and later thirds of the period; but the neighboring Early Hallstatt site of Statzendorf, from which a series of five crania have been taken, contains nothing but long-headed examples, and these are the same as those from the type site itself. So the Hallstatt site is racially typical of the entire period.
    Crania from Wrttemburg, Bavaria, and the Bavarian Palatinate include, with the usual Austrian Hallstatt type, a large minority of brachycephals which may be considered as survivals from the Bronze Age... It would appear, then, that in southwestern Germany, Hallstatt Nordics had invaded the region and had mixed with the Bell Beaker Dinarics and the old Borreby sub-stratum....A large series from the Spreewald, situated to the north of this area and on flat land, consists entirely of purely dolichocephalic crania of the regular Austrian Hallstatt type, 19 which was apparently at home in the lowlands of central Europe, but not in the highlands, which had already given shelter to a tenacious brachycephalic population....
    In Bosnia, we come to the famous site of Glasinac...The majority of the skulls are long headed and these show the same mixture of Danubian and Corded elements which we have already seen at Hallstatt itself. The brachycephalic skulls, although in the minority,.. Almost all belong to what might be called a modern Dinaric racial type...The skulls are moderately large with flattened occiputs, straight side walls, rather broad foreheads, and a very prominent nose, in the one instance in which the nasal bones were preserved...Metrically, these brachycephalic crania resemble the Bronze Age series from Cyprus, This is the first occurrence of crania of this type in the Dinaric Alpine region in any considerable numbers. We have already seen, however, that this same type had entered these mountains by the beginning of the Bronze Age, in connection with the eastward movement of the Bell Beaker peoples.The round-heads at Glasinac and in Carniola may have been the descendants of these Bell Beaker refugees.
    As the Illyrians spread southwestward along the Dinaric Alps into Montenegro and Albania, they apparently blended with an indigenous brachycephalic mountain population which may have been more numerous than the invaders; for, with some additions and modifications, it persists as a predominant element today
    The significance of our study of the Illyrian peoples is as follows: on the plains of south central Germany and Lower Austria, where the Hallstatt culture arose, the racial type involved was skeletally a Nordic one.
    It finds a ready prototype in the Bronze Age population which stretched from Austria to Siberia, and which was in turn the product of mixture between Danubian peasants and Corded invaders. It seems most likely that the Illyrians were largely the descendants, more specifically, of the Aunjetitz people, through an Urnfields medium, or of some similar physical blend composed of identical racial ingredients.
    https://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-VI2.htm
    TLR: only doli nordid skulls can be attributed to illyrians, brachy element was dominant Bell Beaker known from over a century ago before they few years ago discovered that Bell Beakers were dominant r1b-l23 which comes from Armenia and only exists in Europe in Albania,Western Transilvany, Basques and greeks.

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    I think somebody needs to learn to read



    The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1andW3a).The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture(from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.
    Fresh arrivals or not. There is no proof they came directly from Steppes. Most likely from Hallstatt and into the Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqipez View Post
    I think somebody needs to learn to read



    Fresh arrivals or not. There is no proof they came directly from Steppes. Most likely from Hallstatt and into the Balkans.
    He should concern himself more about his Armenoid J2a1 Kura-Araxes being subjugated by R1b-L23 IE Cimmerian Conan The Barbarians than about Albanian yDNA.


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    Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.



    The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian. It is clearly related to Indo European expansion into the Balkans. Proto Armenians, Hitties etc seem to of migrated into the Balkans and into Anatolia.

    We are not discussing skulls or race here or autosomal, which can change with mixing, but we are discussing ydna.

    The Dinaric elements in the Balkans most certainly does not stem from any Bell Beakers , except for a minority that possibly was picked up by Ilyrians in central Europe. The Dinaric element is rather Pre IE, much like proper Mediterranean and Upper Paleolithic, or occurred during IE since Dinaricisation can occur anywhere in the world and cannot be linked to one single population such as Bell Beakers.

    Read Coons work on Dinaricisation.

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    Veteran Member Kelmendasi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmoo View Post
    He isn't, for he hails from Kuči clan which is not connected to Albanians in any way (their closest Y-DNA SNP matches are from Poland and US).
    Nope, in fact their closest SNP match are the Trieshi who are an Albanian clan. They belong to the same subclade/SNP, BY5293, and share a TMRCA of around 1100ybp. And Kuqi is connected to Albanians through oral legends and history.
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-14-2018 at 03:40 PM.
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    The Albanians, these tigers of mountain wars ... have as their religion rebellion. Even their worst warrior is one of the strongest and bravest on the battle-field, just as if he was a knight on the legendary horse. But he has no horse, nor proper weapons for battle. Instead of the horse, he has a lance which strikes as lightning, he has spears who's points are full of posion as the sting of hornets, he has also a wooden bow with some arrows. Furthermore, he is stronger than iron ...

    - Ibn Kemal, Historian of the Turkish court during Skanderbeg's war against the Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqipez View Post
    Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

    The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian. It is clearly related to Indo European expansion into the Balkans. Proto Armenians, Hitties etc seem to of migrated into the Balkans and into Anatolia.

    We are not discussing skulls or race here or autosomal, which can change with mixing, but we are discussing ydna.

    The Dinaric elements in the Balkans most certainly does not stem from any Bell Beakers , except for a minority that possibly was picked up by Ilyrians in central Europe. The Dinaric element is rather Pre IE, much like proper Mediterranean and Upper Paleolithic, or occurred during IE since Dinaricisation can occur anywhere in the world and cannot be linked to one single population such as Bell Beakers.

    Read Coons work on Dinaricisation.
    Indeed.

    Also, I noticed the highest Dinarized Albanian regions are the ones with the least Caucasus admixture and the most North-Western. Zero correlation to so-called Armenoid migrations to Albania and elsewhere.

    You're often more Northwestern than me in the PCA plots.

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    Nice results. The ancient Illyrians had the closest genetic affinities to the modern day Albanians.

    OWD-nism at it's finest:
    Quote Originally Posted by xiperyum View Post
    we are close to greeks. and we are white. they are semitic-persian mixing. and dark
    Quote Originally Posted by Bri View Post
    The Turkic element is too northern and beyond your reach. Unstick now, brown ss.

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    Inactive_account Jana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqipez View Post
    Bell Beaker culture was never inn the Balkans from what I know. It is associated with Central and Western Europe.

    The R1b l23 was also most likely an Indo European. And an Ilyrian
    It is not likely, but certain. Almost all Yamnanya burials were L23, it seem to be connected to proto Greek, Armenian and Paleo Balkan languages.

    Bell Beakers are ancestors of modern Celto-Germanics, and they carried western clades or R1b, like L21, U158 and others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmoo View Post
    There are several interpretations regarding the name, but etymology is an unreliable science, especially on its own. Genetics have revealed that Kuči Mrnjavčevići and Kuči Drekalovići (some of the latter claim descent from Skenderbeg) are identical, contrary to what was previously thought, as well as that they have no matches among Albanian clans. The story of origin from Skenderbeg most likely stems from the fact that founder of Drekalović branch was related to him via maternal line.
    The Albanians of Kuqi who iirc are Ndreka/Drekaloviq believe that they come from Berisha e Kuqe which was a brotherhood of Berisha and they still call themselves Berisha e Kuqe. Although I know that the Montenegrins believe to come from Skanderbeg. They do match one of the Albanian clans and that is the Trieshi(Bankeqi brotherhood), though we have found out that the Nucullaj of Kastrati that are from Koje/Koci(An Albanian village) are also from the Kuqi clade. Certain families from Kuqi also have more recent Albanian origin such as the Pajovic(Pajaj) and Nikic(Nikaj) that were part of the same brotherhood as the Nucullaj but were Slavicized, the Nucullaj are the only ones who still identify as Albanian. Interesting the earliest mentions of the leader of Drekaloviq show them as Catholic who converted to Orthodoxy and that certain historians noted the area as "Chuzzi Albanese".
    Last edited by Kelmendasi; 09-14-2018 at 03:44 PM.
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    The Albanians, these tigers of mountain wars ... have as their religion rebellion. Even their worst warrior is one of the strongest and bravest on the battle-field, just as if he was a knight on the legendary horse. But he has no horse, nor proper weapons for battle. Instead of the horse, he has a lance which strikes as lightning, he has spears who's points are full of posion as the sting of hornets, he has also a wooden bow with some arrows. Furthermore, he is stronger than iron ...

    - Ibn Kemal, Historian of the Turkish court during Skanderbeg's war against the Turks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jana View Post
    It is not likely, but certain. Almost all Yamnanya burials were L23, it seem to be connected to proto Greek, Armenian and Paleo Balkan languages.

    Bell Beakers are ancestors of modern Celto-Germanics, and they carried western clades or R1b, like L21, U158 and others.
    There is physical proof of Ancient R1b-L23 remains conquering Armenia in the Bronze Age. These R1b-L23 were Northern Euro autosomally and were totally different admixturewise to modern Armenians.

    Connecting Ancient R1b-L23 to Armenoids is laughable.

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