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Thread: Kosovo described as Albanian by Turkish traveller of the 1600's

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    Default Kosovo described as Albanian by Turkish traveller of the 1600's

    I don't know why this thread kept being deleted so I remade it...

    Arnavudluk , Arnaut, Arnavud etc were Turkish words for Albanian.




    While the ethnic roots of some settlements can be determined from the Ottoman records, Serbian and Albanian historians have at times read too much into them in their running dispute over the ethnic history of early Ottoman Kosovo. Their attempts to use early Ottoman provincial surveys (tahrir defterleri) to gauge the ethnic make—up of the population in the fifteenth century have proved little. Leaving aside questions arising from the dialects and pronunciation of the census scribes, interpreters, and even priests who baptized those recorded, no natural law binds ethnicity to name. Imitation, in which the customs, tastes, and even names of those in the public eye are copied by the less exalted, is a time—tested tradition and one followed in the Ottoman Empire. Some Christian sipahis in early Ottoman Albania took such Turkic names as Timurtaş, for example, in a kind of cultural conformity completed later by conversion to Islam. Such cultural mimicry makes onomastics an inappropriate tool for anyone wishing to use Ottoman records to prove claims so modern as to have been irrelevant to the pre—modern state. The seventeenth—century Ottoman notable arid author Evliya Çelebi, who wrote a massive account of his travels around the empire and abroad, included in it details of local society that normally would not appear in official correspondence; for this reason his account of a visit to several towns in Kosovo in 1660 is extremely valuable. Evliya confirms that western and at least parts of central Kosovo were ‘Arnavud’. He notes that the town of Vučitrn had few speakers of ‘Boşnakca’; its inhabitants spoke Albanian or Turkish. He terms the highlands around Tetovo (in Macedonia), Peć, and Prizren the ‘mountains of Arnavudluk’. Elsewhere, he states that ‘the mountains of Peć’ lay in Arnavudluk, from which issued one of the rivers converging at Mitrovica, just north-west of which he sites Kosovo’s border with Bosna. This river, the Ibar, flows from a source in the mountains of Montenegro north—north—west of Peć, in the region of Rozaje to which the Këlmendi would later be moved. He names the other river running by Mitrovica as the Kılab and says that it, too, had its source in Aravudluk; by this he apparently meant the Lab, which today is the name of the river descending from mountains north—east of Mitrovica to join the Sitnica north of Priština. As Evliya travelled south, he appears to have named the entire stretch of river he was following the Kılab, not noting the change of name when he took the right fork at the confluence of the Lab and Sitnica. Thus, Evliya states that the tomb of Murad I, killed in the battle of Kosovo Polje, stood beside the Kılab, although it stands near the Sitnica outside Priština. Despite the confusion of names, Evliya included in Arnavudluk not only the western fringe of Kosovo, but also the central mountains from which the Sitnica (‘Kılab’) and its first tributaries descend. Given that a large Albanian population lived in Kosovo, especially in the west and centre, both before and after the Habsburg invasion of 1689–90, it remains possible, in theory, that at that time in the Ottoman Empire, one people emigrated en masse and another immigrated to take its place.

    http://eprints.bbk.ac.uk/577/1/Binder2.pdf

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    16th century? That's like yesterday.

    Let's go back in 5th century .... ot 10th century.

    Prizren, Skadar... whose cities where they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosniensis View Post
    16th century? That's like yesterday.

    Let's go back in 5th century .... ot 10th century.

    Prizren, Skadar... whose cities where they?
    Most certainly not Serbs considering Serbs held it only from 12th to 14th century. Those times you mentioned they were under Bulgarian and Byzantium occupation and if we go further back to Roman times or pre Roman times not a single Slav lived in those lands and it was probably Albanian if we go by anthropology, genetics , historical records and linguistics.

    We know Kosovo had a Vlach and Albanian population continuously, we know Slavs did not live in these areas originally. If we take them out of the picture then the only people that can qualify as the candidates of the native population of Kosovo , Macedonia etc could be Albanians and some Latinised populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqipez View Post
    Most certainly not Serbs considering Serbs held it only from 12th to 14th century. Those times you mentioned they were under Bulgarian and Byzantium occupation and if we go further back to Roman times or pre Roman times not a single Slav lived in those lands and it was probably Albanian if we go by anthropology, genetics , historical records and linguistics.

    We know Kosovo had a Vlach and Albanian population continuously, we know Slavs did not live in these areas originally. If we take them out of the picture then the only people that can qualify as the candidates of the native population of Kosovo , Macedonia etc could be Albanians and some Latinised populations.
    Actually my mistake , early 13th century ****

    You're also going off topic and are missing the point . How could this land of always been Serbian when history shows something else ? Ask yourself this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosniensis View Post
    16th century? That's like yesterday.

    Let's go back in 5th century .... ot 10th century.

    Prizren, Skadar... whose cities where they?
    There is a point to 16 century since serbs say Albanians advanced there during ottoman occupation. It was of course earlier than that, and eternal, but this is why 16 century it's pointed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulu View Post
    There is a point to 16 century since serbs say Albanians advanced there during ottoman occupation. It was of course earlier than that, and eternal, but this is why 16 century it's pointed out.
    I wonder why he chose specifically those times.. as if they were Serbian when they actually weren't...

    Albanians were mentioned in Kosovo even during Stefan Dusans time. Weather majority or minority. It doesn't matter. Albanians were even mentioned in Bulgaria during the Bulgarian Empire.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shqipez View Post
    I wonder why he chose specifically those times.. as if they were Serbian when they actually weren't...

    Albanians were mentioned in Kosovo even during Stefan Dusans time. Weather majority or minority. It doesn't matter. Albanians were even mentioned in Bulgaria during the Bulgarian Empire.
    They were never a minority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hulu View Post
    They were never a minority.
    How could Albanians continuously of made up the majority in a area that was invaded and inhabited by many different people ? It's very doubtful. They always had a presence though, especially in its Western parts. And this land wasn't always Serbian or Slavic which is the main point.


    What a straightforward reading of all this evidence would suggest is that there were significant reservoirs of a mainly Catholic Albanian-speaking population in parts of Western Kosovo, and evidence from the following century suggests that many of these eventually became Muslims. Whether Albanian-speakers were a majority in Western Kosovo at this time seems very doubtful, and it is clear that they were only a small minority in the east. On the other hand, it is also clear that the Albanian minority in Eastern Kosovo predated the Ottoman conquest."

    Albanians mentioned by Stefan Dusan in Kosovo



    From the details of the monastic estates given in the chrysobulls, further information can be gleaned about these Vlachs and Albanians. The earliest reference is in one of Nemanja’s charters giving property to Hilandar, the Serbian monastery on Mount Athos: 170 Vlachs are mentioned, probably located in villages round Prizren. When Dečanski founded his monastery of Decani in 1330, he referred to ‘villages and katuns of Vlachs and Albanians’ in the area of the white Drin: a katun (alb.:katund) was a shepherding settlement. And Dusan’s chrysobull of 1348 for the Monastery of the Holy Archangels in Prizren mentions a total of nine Albanian katuns."
    Both parts taken from Noel Malcolms book on Kosovo. In Western Kosovo we were a significant minority.

    This native and pre Ottoman Albanian population in Kosovo eventually grew. Which made the Albanian population in Kosovo grow. And not solely Malsor migrations which came much later.


    You're not thinking of it from a logical side. The fact we weren't a majority at that time is largely due to Slavs as we were being absorbed into Slavs. You see this pattern among Albanians in Kosovo when you study it closer, their names etc.

    It also debunks the Serbian claim that no Albanians lived in Kosovo before Ottomans which they obviously did. Modern borders are a social construct back then such borders did not exist. Borders of Albania were created in 1912 , we were always scattered outside such borders. Evidence shows Albanians even lived in Nish 500 years ago.


    Using secondary sources, we establish that there have been Albanians living in the area of Nish for at least 500 years, that the Ottoman Empire controlled the area from the fourteenth to nineteenth centuries which led to many Albanians converting to Islam, that the Muslim Albanians of Nish were forced to leave in 1878, and that at that time most of these Nishan Albanians migrated south into Kosovo, although some went to Skopje in Macedonia.; pp. 557–558. In 1690 much of the population of the city and surrounding area was killed or fled, and there was an emigration of Albanians from the Malësia e Madhe (North Central Albania/Eastern Montenegro) and Dukagjin Plateau (Western Kosovo) into Nish.

    https://archive.is/20160507022158/ht...63200903009619

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    Iskusan član Vlatko Vukovic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bosniensis View Post
    16th century? That's like yesterday.

    Let's go back in 5th century .... ot 10th century.

    Prizren, Skadar... whose cities where they?
    There was no Serbian nation formed in 5th century. Also not Albanian. It would be fruitless to argue which it was in 5th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vlatko Vukovic View Post
    There was no Serbian nation formed in 5th century. Also not Albanian. It would be fruitless to argue which it was in 5th century.
    It was South Slavic held territory you happy?

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