The Protestant Ethic and The Spirit of Capitalism

[The Lawspeaker]

As someone posted in another thread. Let's use it here as standing on its own and use it for further review.

[renaissance12]

As someone posted in another thread. Let's use it here as standing on its own and use it for further review.

Venice and Florence are the place where "capitalism" was born.. including banks and insurance companies.( The first known insurance contract dates from Genoa in 1347)


City - London - Lombard Street ( from Lombardia )..

[The Lawspeaker]

Correct. But it stopped there: what killed the Italians was probably the rise of the Ottoman Empire, which cut off the trade with the Far East. This means that Europe had to get around Africa in order to regain that trade and the Italians were unlucky: they were literary on the wrong side of Europe (the Atlantic nations had a better position).

[renaissance12]

Correct. But it stopped there: what killed the Italians was probably the rise of the Ottoman Empire, which cut off the trade with the Far East. This means that Europe had to get around Africa in order to regain that trade and the Italians were unlucky: they were literary on the wrong side of Europe (the Atlantic nations had a better position).

I think the history is different..

John Cabot... Venetian GIOVANNI CABOTTO... immediately after Columbus "discovery" of America proposed overseas shipments to take possession of new territories in the name of the Doge of Venice.. .. but the Doge answer was: We don't need further wealth. ( in the XV Venice was the ship-superpower of Europe.. Venice could have easily conquered some places on the coast of Morocco as a bridgehead to conquer the new world.)
Giovanni Cabotto- John Cabott was disappointed and surprised by the Doge's response.. and so he went to England to propose overseas shipments to take possession of new territories in the name of the King of England.. Henry VII






England flag.. and Venice San Marco flag..


It is funny.. Columbus "worked" for Spain.. and Caboto "worked" for England..( at that time Italy didn't exist )

[The Lawspeaker]

I think the history is different..

John Cabott... Venetian GIOVANNI CABOTTO... immediately after Columbus "discovery" of America proposed overseas shipments to take possession of new territories in the name of the Doge of Venice.. .. but the Doge answer was: We don't need further wealth. ( in the XV Venice was the ship-superpower of Europe.. Venice could have easily conquered some places on the coast of Morocco as a bridgehead to conquer the new world.)
Giovanni Cabotto- John Cabott was disappointed and surprised by the Doge's response.. and so he went to England to propose overseas shipments to take possession of new territories in the name of the King of England.. Henry VII

That's one part: they pissed it away. The other part is still in the cutting off of the trade routes in 1453. But then again: the fact that they didn't really try to go all-out against the Turks may well classify as "pissing it all away" just the same.

[renaissance12]

That's one part: they pissed it away. The other part is still in the cutting off of the trade routes in 1453. But then again: the fact that they didn't really try to go all-out against the Turks may well classify as "pissing it all away" just the same.

Sometimes...... to much wealth is Dangerous...is the beginning of the decadence..

[The Lawspeaker]

Sometimes...... to much wealth is Dangerous...is the beginning of the decadence..

The Dutch of the 18th century and the British of the mid-20th can tell you all about it. So can the Americans today... History always tends to repeat itself and maybe this is why we need to stick to our founding principles.

[Tchek]

Obviously, dechristianisation means that the old cognitive reflexes of Protestantism would be subconsciously reinvested in other ways, namely Capitalism (frugality, accumulation of goods as salvation=Growth etc...)

The guy says religion is superstructural, but as Ludwig Feuerbach explained, religion is the outward expression of anthropological factors. Man makes religion as much as the other way round. Which means that Protestant ethic (or any ethics) doesn't come from Protestantism but preexists religion (there is often a Pagan root to religion). You can impose Protestantism on, say, Somalians, they won't become rich overnight.

Now, history proved Max Weber wrong anyway, protestant areas are not the richest, actually Catholic areas are richer now (Flanders, southern Netherlands, Bayern, Bade-Wurtemberg etc...), While Pomerania, Frisia, Northern Ireland... lag behind.


More than a Protestant ethics, what he should have talked about is the Agrarian (or Farmer's) ethic. If you divide europe between Post-agrarian areas vs Post-industrial areas, you'll see that Post-agrarian regions are often much richer (and more conservative), post-industrial societies fell into poverty.

The Farmer's ethic means: patience, thrift, frugality and hard-work, because that's what was needed to cultivate the land for centuries. You grow potatoes, you won't eat them before months.
People in Post-industrial areas usually have no capacity for delayed gratification and low frustation tolerance (more impulsive).

[The Lawspeaker]

I am not sure where you base your info on but the Southern Netherlands (Brabant and Limburg) are severely lagging behind Holland or Utrecht.

[Tchek]

I am not sure where you base your info on but the Southern Netherlands (Brabant and Limburg) are severely lagging behind Holland or Utrecht.

They are still largely richer than Friesland. Noord-Brabant is 15% of NL's GDP, while Friesland is only 2.7%. The Utrecht region, according to Eurostat is 8.7% of Netherlands GDP so almost twice lower than Noord-Brabant. Amsterdam is obviously the economic capital of the NL.