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Thread: Proposed changes in administrative divisions of Poland

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    Default Proposed changes in administrative divisions of Poland

    Current divisions:



    Proposed changes:

    https://i.imgur.com/ld9LHCs.png



    The main changes that I suggest are:

    Liquidation of Lubuskie and Opolskie (partition of Lubuskie between Greater Poland and Lower Silesia - with Kostrzyn-Słubice area left as a hub/link - and partition of Opolskie between Upper Silesia and Lower Silesia); separation of Czestochowa - a historically Lesser Polish land - from Silesia, and creation of Staropolska Region from Częstochowa and Kielce, creation of Radomskie Region from areas south of the Vistula and Pilica rivers, down to Sandomierz. Apart from this, several more counties and gminy should be transferred from one region to another.

    These regions from the map above, can be further grouped into 6 or 5 larger autonomous states.

    I suggest a sensible division of Opolskie between Silesia & Lower Silesia, and of Lubuskie between Wielkopolska & Lower Silesia. Also to attach historically (and demographically, settled mainly by Greater Poles also today) Greater Polish Wałcz and Wschowa to Wielkopolska.

    In case if Lower Silesia and West Pomerania are to be united into one autonomous state, Region Kostrzyn-Słubice could serve as this state's capital. Wrocław is too far away from Pomerania to play such a role, it can only be a capital of Lower Silesia region.

    Borders of East Pomerania were left unchanged with the excepion of Nowy Dwór Gdański, which I transferred to Warmia-Mazury, in order for a possible autonomous state Mazowsze-Mazury to gain direct access to the Baltic coast (not just to the Vistula Lagoon). Plus, historically these are Żuławy Elbląskie. Another reason is the necessity to give the city of Elbląg some space for development also in the west.

    Counties Susz (Iława) and Nowe Miasto Lubawskie should be given to Kujawy-Pomorze, due to historical reasons (they were not parts of East Prussia, but Royal/West Prussia), political reasons after 1918 (Lubawa Land was part of Polish Pomerelia already between the World Wars - Działdowo as well, but Działdowo is historically Masurian land), and demographical factors after 1945 (county Susz was settled from the west, unlike the rest of Warmia-Mazury where people from Masovia, Rzeszowskie, Lubelskie and from Kresy settled). Another reason why these two counties should be added to Kujawy-Pomorze, is the necessity of expanding Toruń's zone of influence (if we divide Kujawy-Pomorze along the Vistula into "Bydgoszcz zone" and "Toruń zone", currently Bydgoszcz's zone has much more inhabitants - adding these two counties to Toruń's zone of influence will balance it out to some extent).

    Gołdap, Olecko, Ełk - added to Podlasie due to demographic reasons. These counties were settled almost exclusively by people from neighbouring Suwałki Region and Podlasie. This is "family reunification" (just like I have some distant relatives near Sulęcin, who moved there from Greater Poland, many Podlachians have relatives in these 3 counties). Widening the "Suwałki Gap" also looks good in maps.

    Rawa - nomen omen Mazowiecka - and Skierniewice should be added to Mazowsze, historical reasons.

    Biała - nomen omen Podlaska (Poleska) - should be added to Podlasie, with Łosice, historical reasons.

    Opoczno and all northern counties of Świętokrzyskie should be added to newly created Radomskie.

    Łomża, Kolno and Zambrów are Mazovian lands, not Podlasie. They will recompense losses to Radom.

    Mielec, Dębica and Jasło was neither Red Ruthenia (unlike Krosno and Rzeszów), nor East Galicia later - so they should return to Cracow. They recompense the loss of Olkusz and Miechów - which were in Congress Kingdom, not in Galicia - to Staropolska.

    Old borders of former Krakowskie and Sandomierskie (Radomskie) with Red Ruthenia can be seen here:

    http://hgisb.kul.lublin.pl/azm/pmapp...na&language=en

    County Żywiec (and gminy Bestwina, Wilamowice, Kozy, Porąbka) go to Cracow, as historically Lesser Polish and Galician lands.

    Counties Kłobuck, Częstochowa, Zawiercie and Myszków (the last one maybe without its western part, which historically belonged to the Duchy of Siewierz) go to Staropolska. County Będzin can stay in Silesia. The Duchy of Siewierz did not include Dąbrowa and Sosnowiec, it included western part of county Myszków (gmina and town Koziegłowy, part of gmina Poraj and gmina Myszków without the town itself), county Będzin with Czeladź and part of city Będzin until the Przemsza river, the suburbs of Dąbrowa until the Trzebyczka River:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...=1#post5482782

    Three western counties of Opolskie - Nysa, Brzeg and Namysłów - maybe with exception of some gminy, towns and villages - should be added to Wrocław, not to Katowice. There are two main reasons - historical (these counties are historically Lower Silesian) and demographical (today percent of autochthonous Silesians in these 3 counties is low, actually it was already in 1945).

    The rest of Opolskie which has large percentages of Silesians should be added to Katowice.
    Last edited by Peterski; 10-08-2018 at 05:48 AM. Reason: longer description added

  2. #2
    Ülev
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    Konin to Cuyavia voivodeship

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich View Post
    Konin to Cuyavia voivodeship
    No it would make no sense.

    My changes are based on historical-cultural and demographical (origins of inhabitants) factors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    No it would make no sense.

    My changes are based on historical-cultural and demographical (origins of inhabitants) factors.
    some maps:

    http://www.piastowie.kei.pl/piast/mapy/11.htm
    http://historiaprzedborza.blogspot.c...ie-sprzed.html

    Konin does not wants to be Greater Polish/"Wielkopolish" anymore!

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    Ranking by number of inhabitants (and area in square kilometers) after my proposed changes:

    Around 5 million inhabitants:

    Mazowsze (with Warsaw) = 4963 K inhabitants, area 34 thousand km2

    Between 3 and 5 million:

    Wielkopolska = 4132 K inhabitants, area 38 thousand km2
    Górny Śląsk = 4025 K inhabitants, area 13 thousand km2
    Krakowskie = 3825 K inhabitants, area 18 thousand km2
    Dolny Śląsk = 3503 K inhabitants, area 28 thousand km2

    Between 2 and 3 million:

    Pomorze Wsch. = 2284 K inhabitants, area 18 thousand km2
    Centralne (with Łódź) = 2277 K inhabitants, area 16 thousand km2
    Kujawy-Pomorze = 2220 K inhabitants, area 20 thousand km2
    Lubelskie = 1966 K inhabitants, area 22 thousand km2

    Between 1 and 2 million:

    Galicyjskie* = 1741 K inhabitants, area 15 thousand km2
    Pomorze Zach. = 1653 K inhabitants, area 21 thousand km2
    Staropolska = 1541 K inhabitants, area 12 thousand km2
    Podlasie = 1345 K inhabitants, area 24 thousand km2
    Radomskie = 1190 K inhabitants, area 11 thousand km2
    Warmia-Mazury = 1182 K inhabitants, area 20 thousand km2

    Below 1 million inhabitants:

    Zagłębie, Jaworzno = 424 K inhabitants, area 0.5 thousand km2
    Kostrzyn-Słubice = 100 K inhabitants, area 2 thousand km2

    TOTAL: 38 million 371 thousand inhabitants, area 312,500 km2

    ==========

    This can be further grouped into 6 autonomous "states", with over 4 million inhabitants each:

    1. Mazowsze-Mazury (Mazowsze with Warsaw + Warmia-Mazury + Podlasie) = 7490 K inhabitants, area 78 thousand km2
    2. Pn. Małopolska-Centrum (Centralne + Staropolska + Radomskie + Lubelskie) = 6974 K inhabitants, area 61 thousand km2
    3. Południowa Małopolska (Krakowskie + Podkarpackie; area of former Galicia) = 5566 K inhabitants, area 33 thousand km2
    4. Górny Śląsk & Zagłębie (Górny Śląsk + Zagłębie Dąbrowskie + Jaworzno) = 4449 K inhabitants, area 13-14 thousand km2
    5. Wielkopolska-Pomorze (Wielkopolska + Pomorze Wsch. + Kujawy-Pomorze) = 8636 K inhabitants, area 76 thousand km2
    6. Ziemie Zachodnie (Dolny Śląsk + Pomorze Zach. + Rejon Kostrzyn-Słubice) = 5256 K inhabitants, area 51 thousand km2

    TOTAL: 38 million 371 thousand inhabitants, area 312,500 km2

    *With prospect of expanding it if we manage to regain Lwów/Lviv.
    Last edited by Peterski; 10-07-2018 at 08:43 PM.

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    Radom should have its own region, because:

    1) They have no any connection to Masovia/Warsaw - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNFx1TTuyu0



    2) They don't like Kielce, so should not be attached to it - http://www.radom.pl/page/print.php?str=2161

    On the other, Częstochowa does not want to be in Silesia:

    http://www.wojewodztwoslaskie.celnie..._czestochowska

    They want to form one region together with Kielce, quote: "Jedyną sensowną walką jaką powinniśmy prowadzić jest przekonanie rządzących do połączenia Częstochowy i Kielc w jeden silny region staropolski. Kielce na takiej fuzji też zyskają, gdyż przestaną się obawiać o możliwość włączenia ich terytorium pod Kraków. Częstochowa stałaby się jednym z dwóch najważniejszych miast województwa z silnym prawem decydowania o losach swoich i całego regionu. Walka o województwo częstochowskie kojarzyć się może tylko z przedwyborczą grą. Walka o województwo staropolskie (z Kielcami) daje nam realną szansę na oderwanie od Śląska i utrzymanie swojej tożsamości kulturowej."

    Silesians also do not want to be connected with Częstochowa:

    https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...-WW2-and-today

    They want to unite with Opolskie and form one Silesian region.

    But 3 western counties of Opolskie should be added to Wrocław.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erich View Post
    Konin does not wants to be Greater Polish/"Wielkopolish" anymore!
    Konin is Greater Polish. We had a saying: "Na wschód od Konina Azja się zaczyna" ("Asia starts to the east of Konin").

    Which means that Konin must be in Wielkopolska. You might have some doubts about Koło and Turek, but not Konin!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peterski View Post
    Konin is Greater Polish. We had a saying: "Na wschód od Konina Azja się zaczyna" ("Asia starts to the east of Konin").

    Which means that Konin must be in Wielkopolska. You might have some doubts about Koło and Turek, but not Konin!
    "łodyńdź od Konina" https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwara_kujawska

    Greater Poland was under German partition , Konin was under Russian partition , nothing common here

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    Konin and Kalisz are parts of historical Greater Poland and ties did not become looser just because of partition border.

    Drzymała was born in Russian part of Greater Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drzyma%C5%82a%27s_wagon

    Quote Originally Posted by Erich View Post
    Greater Poland was under German partition
    Not all of it.

    Around 3/4 or 4/5 of Greater Poland was under German partition. 1/4 or 1/5 was left in Russia, including Kalisz and Konin.

    And western border of Greater Poland is in the middle of present-day Lubuskie (that's why Lubuskie should be abolished):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzemeszno_Lubuskie - until 1793 this town was known as Szaromyśl and part of Wielkopolska.

    In the course of the Second Partition of Poland in 1793, Trzemszno Lubuskie [at that time known as Szaromyśl, or Schermeisel in German] was annexed by the Kingdom of Prussia and from 1815 incorporated into the Grand Duchy of Posen. (...)
    This area has many Greater Polish "autochthons", and was also re-colonized by Greater Poles from further east after WW2:



    ^^^ Modern Lubuskie is a mix of Greater Poles and Kresy Poles, based on 1950 census data.

    Counties with plurality of "Prussian Poles" (origin from Poznańskie, Bydgoskie & Gdańskie - so pre-war Poznańskie and Pomorskie; plus local autochthons), in brackets after adding origin from Łódzkie; after slash Kresowiaks:

    Piła (city & county) - 48% (51%) / 32%
    Strzelce-Drezdenko - 37% (44%) / 33%
    Międzyrzecz - 42% (48%) / 39%
    Skwierzyna - 39% (46%) / 30%
    Sulechów - 45% (47%) / 39%
    Wschowa - 33% (35%) / 47%
    Gorzów Wielkopolski - 33% (38%) / 41%
    Sulęcin - 23% (27%) / 59%
    Rzepin - 28% (31%) / 56%
    City Zielona Góra - 41% (44%) / 33%
    County Zielona Góra - 35% (40%) / 37%
    Krosno Od. - 27% (31%) / 45%
    Świebodzin - 25% (28%) / 57%
    Wałcz - 23% (38%) / 30%
    Złotów - 52% (53%) / 11%

    TOTAL - 36% (41%) / 38% - and population in 1950 was 479,590

    ^^^
    As you can see in this area 36% of the population are "Prussian" Poles, and after adding Łódzkie we get 41% Greater Polish, Kuyavian and Pomeranian population. Another 38% are Poles from Kresy (40% without Złotów).

    So Greater Poland has not only historical rights to most of this area (see for example Grenzmark Posen; or western borders of Greater Poland in 1793 and in 1815), but also demographic rights due to post-WW2 settling.

    For the same reason, current borders of East Pomerania are good:

    Counties with plurality of "Prussian Poles" (origin from Poznańskie, Bydgoskie & Gdańskie - so pre-war Poznańskie and Pomorskie; plus local autochthons), in brackets after adding also origin from Łódzkie; after slash Poles from Kresy:

    Kwidzyn - 45% (47%) / 19%
    Sztum - 60% (62%) / 12%
    Malbork - 38% (40%) / 27%
    County Gdańsk - 46% (48%) / 14%
    Gdańsk-Sopot - 42% (46%) / 21%
    Lębork - 48% (54%) / 17%
    Bytów - 66% (67%) / 13%
    Miastko - 45% (51%) / 17%
    Człuchów - 35% (38%) / 15%
    Słupsk - 29% (35%) / 26%
    Susz - 46% (46%) / 10%

    TOTAL - 43% (46%) / 19% - and population in 1950 was 636,424

    ^^^
    As you can see in these areas 43% of the population comes from "Prussian Poland" (including local autochthons), and after adding Łódzkie we have 46% of Pomeranian, Kuyavian and Greater Polish population. Kresowiaks are 19%.

    =====

    On the other hand, counties Gołdap, Olecko and Ełk are settled by people from Podlasie (Białostockie):

    Gołdap - 72% of the population is from Podlasie
    Olecko - 76% of the population is from Podlasie
    Ełk - 68% of the population is from Podlasie



    These counties are unlike the rest of Warmia-Mazury, where population is usually of very mixed origins.
    Last edited by Peterski; 10-08-2018 at 05:53 AM.

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    Regions should always reflect their historical character. When some politicians proposed putting Noord and Zuid-Holland together with Flevoland and Utrecht into one Randstadprovincie, those politicians lost their seats. Everybody outside Holland hates the Randstad.
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