Proposed changes in administrative divisions of Poland

[Mikula]

. The Psyovians (Psouane; Pszowianie) lived near Pszów, to the east of the Opolans and to the west of Cracow.
]

Tribe of the same name dwelled also at Bohemia near Mělník - Pšované
St. Ludmila originated there, too.

[Joso]

cool

[Peterski]

Masuria is too small to be its own region. Its named after Masovians so it could go to them based on the claims that Masovians colonized Masuria. But the region was Baltic-speaking before Masovians arrived in Masuria and the people there might be of mostly Baltic origin

Yes, original Masurians are of Masovian descent (if you go back to the 1400s-1500s) and after WW2 there was another migration from Masovia to parts of East Prussia given to Poland. Maps below show origin of population by county according to 1950 census:

Map 1 - origin of population by county in 1950, including autochthons:

Purple - over 15% autochthons (= lived in the same county on 31.08.1939)
Yellow - plurality of Poles from Former Eastern Poland (Kresy)
Red - plurality of new immigrants from Masovia
Bronze - plurality from Sudovia and Podlaskie
Green - plurality from Lublin Region & Subcarpathia (including Ukrainians)
Blue - plurality from "Prussian Poland" (Polish Pomerelia & Greater Poland)

Map 2 - origin of new immigrants (as above but without autochthons)



Some autochthonous Warmiaks and Masurians can be seen in this video - do they look "Baltic" in your opinion?:







Old Warmiaks & Masurians describing how they remember WW2 and the events of 1945:



Old Warmiaks & Masurians talking about the Flight & Evacuation of East Prussia in 1944-45:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacua...f_East_Prussia



^^^
Many stayed only because Soviet tanks were faster and cut off their withdrawal to Baltic ports.

[Mingle]

Thanks for the info. One thing I've been wondering for a while. Why is it called Warmia-Masuria and not Warmia-Masovia? Is the term Masuria based on a more archaic localized pronunciation whereas the name Masovia is based on Standard Polish?

Regarding whether the people look Baltic, I wouldn't know. But I remember you showed me the GEDmatch results of someone from Sudovia/Suwalki and the people there were closer to Lithuanians and Latvians than to Slavs.

[Joso]

Regions should always reflect their historical character. When some politicians proposed putting Noord and Zuid-Holland together with Flevoland and Utrecht into one Randstadprovincie, those politicians lost their seats. Everybody outside Holland hates the Randstad.

Agree

[Peterski]

Thanks for the info. One thing I've been wondering for a while. Why is it called Warmia-Masuria and not Warmia-Masovia? Is the term Masuria based on a more archaic localized pronunciation whereas the name Masovia is based on Standard Polish?

Yes, in archaic Polish (Old Polish), what we call today Mazowszanie (Mazovians) was called Mazurzy (Mazurs or Masurs). Even in books from the 1800s you can read about "Masurs in Lithuania" or "Masurs in Ukraine", or "Prussian Masurs" (the ones in East Prussia) - meaning Poles of Mazovian origin in those areas.

So, Masurians is a just a more archaic (Early Modern) name for Masovians. It survived in East Prussia, while in Masovia the original name has evolved into a new one.

BTW one characteristic feature of Masovian/Masurian dialects is "mazurzenie":

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazurzenie

[Peterski]

Regarding whether the people look Baltic, I wouldn't know. But I remember you showed me the GEDmatch results of someone from Sudovia/Suwalki and the people there were closer to Lithuanians and Latvians than to Slavs.

Yes but I also have GEDmatch kits of Masovians and they are not as Baltic-shifted as people from Sudovia. They are still more Baltic-shifted than Southern and Western Poles, but not as much as Sudovians.

I do have some GEDmatch kits of people who are partially (25% or 50%) Masurians or Warmiaks - including one Polish user from ABF who has padtially East Prussian ancestry (I think it is Kwestos) - but so far I have not found any 100% Masurian kits. So I don't know if Masurians are significantly more Baltic-shifted compared to Masovians, or not.

Also on GEDmatch Masovians will usually get Polish 1st in "Single Population Distance", simply because pretty much all of official genetic studies are using Masovian samples to represent Poland.

That's why Davidski in his Eurogenes K13/K15 calculators added also "South Polish" reference - most of Non-Masovian Poles are closer to "South Polish" than to "Polish" (the latter being based on Masovian samples from Doron M. Behar and other academic datasets).

[Mingle]

Yes but I also have GEDmatch kits of Masovians but they are not as Baltic as people from Sudovia. They are still more Baltic-shifted than Southern and Western Poles, but not as much as Sudovians.

Also on GEDmatch Masovians will get Polish in "Single Population Distance", simply because pretty much all of official genetic studies are using Masovian samples to represent Poland.

That's why Davidski in his Eurogenes K13/K15 calculators added also "South Polish" reference - most of Non-Masovian Poles are closer to "South Polish" than to "Polish" (the latter based on Masovian Polish samples from Doron M. Behar and other academic datasets).

I wonder what Masurians from (Masuria region of Warmia-Masuria) would get. Would they get Polish or Lithuanian as their top match? Do they have mostly Slavic-Masovian blood or are they mostly of autochthonous Baltic origin? Or an even mix between the two?

[Peterski]

I wonder what Masurians from (Masuria region of Warmia-Masuria) would get. Would they get Polish or Lithuanian as their top match? Do they have mostly Slavic-Masovian blood or are they mostly of autochthonous Baltic origin? Or an even mix between the two?

In the 1300s and early 1400s, shortly before Masovians settled there, the region which later became Masuria was known as "Great Wilderness" ("Grosse Wildnis") or "Galindian Wilderness" - because it was almost completely depopulated during the Prussian Crusade (1218-1283). So I don't think that they absorbed many Prussians. Most of Galindians either died in the crusade, found refuge in other countries (Lithuania, Polish duchies, Ruthenian duchies) or were forcibly resettled by the Teutonic Knights further north (mainly to Sambia).

However, Southern Warmia - where Polish Warmiaks live - had significant Old Prussian population before it became Polonized.

So I suppose that there can be a genetic difference between Masurians and Warmiaks.

=====

Great Wilderness (die grosse Wildnis), which was later settled mainly by Poles and Lithuanians (see Klein Litauen):

http://pruskihoryzont.blogspot.com/2...e-wildnis.html

[Joso]

Mazowicle