Eastern Europe from a Western perspective

[The Lawspeaker]

Look you would be surprised both WE and EE suffers from the same issues:
- population aging,
- growth of education,
- growth of economy in a longer horizon.

The result: lack of workforce;
What can local producers/governments do:
- increasing the retirement age,
- reducing working time,
- reduction of production (the economic growth will slow down),
- relocation of production elsewhere (now WEs can still relocate it to some EE's countries, but number of workers is limited and it is unsustainable in the longer term - (population aging); typically to countries like India, China, Turkey, etc. - especially India, China are extremely dangerous economic competitors for Europe,
- to bring immigrants to the country that has the above mentioned issue.

What did they do was all: they raised the retirement age to 66 (and set to be 71 in 2050), they actually raised working hours, they relocated jobs (to the East - just so they could sack their expensive unionised Dutch staff) and bring in more migrants. In all cases, foreigners win, Dutch lose.

In fact: most of Europe's retirement programs seem to be falling apart and with our average coverage of over 105%, the EU now wants to stick its greedy hands in our coffers once more. So understanding that one, you probably begin to see why there is so little enthusiasm in Western Europe to continue with this whole project.

[Magnolia]

Not my fault that you are very naive and believe stats that say that prostitution in Spain or Germany is higher than in USA. Than in USA, for God sake!!


Calling you Eastern Europe (what you are) is an insult?


You Easterners made West Europe a brothel with your mafias and women

It is just you Cristiano viejo a person who is ashamed of skin color of own people who tries to insult people from ex-communist countries by labeling "Eastern European".

Everytime when I see a person from SE try to humiliate people from ex-com-countries I have to think of this:
https://www.rt.com/news/349364-ramsa...candal-greece/
Filthy... Filthy... Filthy... interesting.

Prostitution has a long tradition in your country; the world was globalized so you started to abuse victims... you earn money from them, filthy Spanish Southern European men fuck them... yes, you are better people.

There is nothing like we Easterners - nothing like we Westerners. You have nothing to do with Germany or Norway. You have more in common with South-Eastern countries than with Norway. Yes, especially some people from some South East countries are into organized crime, they were inspirited by their South Western brothers. Mafia forever.

[Dandelion]

Even in Cervantes' masterpiece, Don Quixote, there are prostitutes (who Don Quixote mistakes princesses).

[Cristiano viejo]

It is just you Cristiano viejo a person who is ashamed of skin color of own people who tries to insult people from ex-communist countries by labeling "Eastern European".

Everytime when I see a person from SE try to humiliate people from ex-com-countries I have to think of this:
https://www.rt.com/news/349364-ramsa...candal-greece/
Filthy... Filthy... Filthy... interesting.

Prostitution has a long tradition in your country; the world was globalized so you started to abuse victims... you earn money from them, filthy Spanish Southern European men fuck them... yes, you are better people.

There is nothing like we Easterners - nothing like we Westerners. You have nothing to do with Germany or Norway. You have more in common with South-Eastern countries than with Norway. Yes, especially some people from some South East countries are into organized crime, they were inspirited by their South Western brothers. Mafia forever.

Cool story. No, really. Cool story.
Tell me more

Even in Cervantes' masterpiece, Don Quixote, there are prostitutes (who Don Quixote mistakes princesses).

Probably from Eastern Europe

[pulstar]

Answering the original questions of the thread: Yugoslavia self-eroded. It started by the combination of rapid industrialization of cities where newly emerged citizen class (mostly) didn't integrate well, as well as ideological differences prevailing among top politicians in each republic. The later served for boosting irrational nationalism, by revoking some mythological rights of each nation ("why we war"), which caused friction and antisymmetry. That was the start of collapse. The war was largely due to undefined ethnic borders. The longevity of war was because army became joke in the 1980's, so by early 1990's it was poorly organized. All this was repulsive to many people that fled elsewhere. Since its some of the smartest people who left the ex-Yugoslav countries are in contiunual decline. However modern values are also destroying the countries. To some they were forced. That's why some of us really hate those modern western values.

As for ex-Warsaw pact countries I can't tell.

[nittionia]

murica

[Peterski]

(...)

"On the Plurality of Civilisations", entire book in English:

https://pl.scribd.com/doc/4464979/ON...ny-Entire-Book









"The publishers of 'Polonica Series' have decided to publish an English translation of the present book, because they believe that Koneczny's investigations of the problem of civilisation are important and relevant to the crisis of the Western world: also that his principal work may prove useful and stimulating to the Western reader looking for spiritual and moral orientation. For two reasons the whole heritage of the Western civilization is now endangered. (...)"

[Universe]

Having been born in 1982 and being the child of parents who spent most of their lives under the prospect that "The Bomb" could be dropped at any moment, my perceptions of the Eastern Block are heavily colored by that moment in time (even more so during the 1990s when the only real things you heard about the East were about economic collapse, prostitution alongside the road, war (Yugoslavia !) and crime (gangs of Romanian, Hungarian, Polish and Russian gangsters making their way here).

So, needless to say, my views of the East were (and are !) not very positive. Still: what we see here in the West is an obscene nationalism ( compared to which, our Western versions are pretty rational -- Russia and Hungary come to mind) -- while, from our perception: having nothing to be proud of with a high amount of poverty, crime, social degradation such as alcohol abuse, drug abuse and corruption and an appalling health situation (HIV was/is exploding in much of Eastern Europe). From a Western perception, their nationalism is just a plaster to keep a festering wound from erupting (in other words: from them demanding the same progress we started demanding in 1848 and an end to their almost mediaeval backwardness). Compared to them, we're very civilized. We have our problems, but we can deal with them.

Now on from the 1990s. The 2010s are an interesting period: the problems that plague the East are still there. Now what has changed ? It's the West that is slowly falling to pieces. Years of mismanagement have reduced our own living standards to not much better than they were during the 1990s. Our freedoms ? Eroded ? Our politics ? Not much better than in the East. As for the East ? They can paint a few buildings but, apart from Poland and Estonia, they are still where they used to be.

I wonder why ? Is it a social structure ? Is it the same social structure that is now pushing us down ? Or is it the fact that the Easterners had the hardcore version of the same communism, that had infested our education system, our media, our government by the late 1960s and early 1970s and that only begins to show its face now ? While the Easterners are still plagued by the same apparatchiks that had held them back for over half a century ? Questions questions.

A wall of nonsense that is based on clichés, generalizations and stereotypes rather than facts.

1) Poverty is relative. In my view Hungary is an ok country in terms of wealth, not poor or rich, somewhere in the middle. Poorer than Netherlands? Sure it is, but it isn't realistic to expect it to be as wealthy as western Europe.

2)Crime.. I can't comment on it but a quick google search reveals crime rates in Netherlands and Hungary aren't really different. What made you think there is drastic difference as soon as you cross the austrian-hungarian or the german-polish border? There really aren't.
This study: http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/fi...ecdjan2012.pdf states Netherlands have higher vehicle teft, burglary, robbery, rape rates. Only intentional homicide rate is higher in Hungary but there's barely a difference (1.4 vs 1.1 / 100 000 people / year). I still maintain the crime rates are similar.
Read about albanian drug dealers in your news paper and thought "everyone from eastern half of Europe must be like that" or what? Where does this 'eastern criminals' paranoia come from?

They can paint a few buildings but, apart from Poland and Estonia, they are still where they used to be.

Hmm, nope.
Why do you even write such nonsense that is easily refuted by a quick google search?
Hungary's GDP/Capita (PPP) almost tripled since the fall of socialism (11k in 1990 and 29,5k in 2017, by now it should be over 30k).

Now I know your excuse will be 'But all of that growth is because of western taxpayer's funds!!' (I saw your other posts)

Between 1997 and 2004 the annual growth rate was always above 5%.(2004 was the year we joined EU). I see no reason the growth wouldn't have continued if it weren't for EU funds.
Did Eu funds contribute to Hungarian economy? They probably did. Are they the only reason hungarian economy grew? Obviously not.

You should check the statistics that are available on the net rather than talking nonsense that you pull out of your ass like you often did in this thread.
We have lower crime, better economy, better life expectancy, lower suicide rates than in 1990. We have improved in every way.

3) HIV.
See the stats. Hungary doesn't have higher rate of HIV infected people than Netherlands. Does Russia have relatively high murder rate and % of HIV infected people? Yes it does, but that doesn't mean one should make ridiculous generalizations like "all of EE is like this and that" like you do.

4)Alcohol
Netherlands does have less alcohol related deatsh than Hungary, but the east-west dichotomy doesn't really work here. I'm looking at this statistic: https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...ol/by-country/ A number of Western European countries such as Germany, France and Norway are doing worse in this regard than Hungary, Serbia, Slovakia, Czech, Romania etc.

Maybe because their nationalistic leadership likes to collaborate with Mehmet and his buddies. Just like their ancestors before them in front of Vienna..

And your leadership? They are lapdogs of Merkel, Macron and co. I guess you like that as an anti-immigration person.
Turkey is building a wall on Syrian and Iranian border to stop illegal immigration, what are Western European leaders doing? Inviting half of Africa to live in Europe.

There were cases where hungarians cooperated with the Turkish.
That happened not because we cheered for Ottoman Empire's presence in Europe, but because we were forced to pick one out of the two imperialistic forces that were occupying hungarian territory: Habsburg Empire and Ottoman one. In some cases the latter was the better choice.
When Turks promised more/better priviledges under their rule, we cooperated with them against Austrians. Austrians were enemy of Hungary since day one during Ottoman days. When Hungary was dismantled in early 16th century and Ottomans occupied half of it, Austria occupied the other half. What should have we done? Treat Austrians like brothers when they never treated us that way? Romanians did the same btw, they were Ottoman vassals. They participated in the second siege of Vienna on the Ottoman side.

Nevertheless we fought against Ottomans much more than we cooperated with them. We waged war on them way before they set foot on hungarian soil.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Varna

'But Austrians liberated you!'

Nah, they didn't liberate shit. When they chased the Turks out they just occupied Hungary. There was no liberation, it was just a new empire to occupy us. The same happened in 1945 when Soviets 'liberated' us.

Aye. The best thing we can do is to separate us far as possible from the East. Send Soros and his ilk back to Hungary, replace the EU with a slightly modified EFTA or EEC and get back to cleaning up the country. One snake pit is enough. We don't even need to look across the Oder when we have our own backyard to clean up. And trust me: having seen what I've seen here, I don't even want to look across the Ore Mountains. What a complete and utter horror show !

Soros is more at home in Netherlands. Your gov't would probably welcome him. The jew is 90 years a lived only his first 17 years in Hungary. Not much hungarian about him. He's pro euthanasia, pro lbgt, pro open borders, pro weed. Everything Netherlands stands for. He should be considered a honorary a dutch imo.

Not me. No thanks.

Like we wanted your approval. Look at yourself man, you act like a moron, not desirable for us.

Still. The Hungarian Jews were more integrated with Hungarian culture than many migrants here will ever be. So he must have taken up a good dose of dismantling societies in the old AH-tradition. Let us not forget that the AH-Empire was a veritable European Union in itself.

What does he have to do with A-H? A-h was long gone by the time he was born.

I think the problem is probably older than that. Most of these countries don't have a real democratic history to begin with. No history of popular particular or strength. They do have one of popular servitude. Apart from Poland, no Eastern country was touched by the growing pains of European civilization: they weren't touched by the Renaissance, the Reformation or the Enlightenment The Industrial Revolution too, for them, came from abroad and mostly came only AFTER the communists had taken over.

Democracy? Why do you worry about EE's democracy (or lack of thereof)? What did your western style "democracy" bring to you? I know in Germany every major TV channel is leftist/pro status quo and there's no room for alternative thought, if someone disagrees with the status quo he's called nazi. I assume Netherlands is similar to Germany in this respect.

Now the governing party in Hungary has bought some of the channels and newspapers so there's diversity of opinion in the media. This has made leftists/westerners extremely butthurt for some reason.
10 years ago hungarian media was very much in favor of the left and no one worried about democracy. Leftist hipocrisy I say. Which is funny since you aren't really leftist juding by your posts.

[Aspirin]

Maybe because their nationalistic leadership likes to collaborate with Mehmet and his buddies. Just like their ancestors before them in front of Vienna..

Instead to write such bullshit, first learn about situation in Balkans and Eastern Europe in 14th-15th century, especially about Hungary. Second, don't blame others, when you don't know the history of your country.

Jan Janszoon van Haarlem, commonly known as Murat Reis the Younger (c. 1570 – c. 1641), was a Dutch pirate who "turned Turk" after being captured by a Moorish state in 1618. He began serving as a Barbary pirate, one of the most famous of the 17th-century "Salé Rovers". Together with other corsairs, he helped establish the independent Republic of Salé at the city of that name, serving as the first President and Grand Admiral. He also served as Governor of Oualidia.

The Turkish Abductions (Icelandic: Tyrkjaránið) were a series of slave raids by Ottoman pirates that took place in Iceland between June 20 – July 19, 1627. Pirates from Morocco and Algeria, under the command of Dutch pirate Murat Reis, raided the village of Grindavík on the southwestern coast, Berufjörður and Breiðdalur in the Eastern Region (the East Fjords), and Vestmannaeyjar (islands off the south coast); they captured an estimated 400–800 prisoners to sell into slavery.

[The Lawspeaker]

Instead to write such bullshit, first learn about situation in Balkans and Eastern Europe in 14th-15th century, especially about Hungary. Second, don't blame others, when you don't know the history of your country.

And you forgoet to mention that the Dutch Navy was hunting for them as these people were outlaws (who under the laws of the time, would have ended up swinging off the yardarm.

Ivan de Veenboer a.k.a Sulayman Reis ran into the group of ships after having been taken on by the Dutch navy (which he managed to escape) only to run into another group of foreign (including a Dutch ship) and they ended him.. big time:

He decided to retire, capturing one last ship with a cargo of sugar, before settling in Algiers. His retirement lasted only a brief time however as, in early 1620, he sailed out from port capturing a rich French prize. While sailing off the coast in July of that year, he and four other ships were slowed by a dead calm and surprised by three Dutch men-of-war under Captains 't Hoen, Cleijnsorgh and Schaeff. He and two other ships managed to escape, although his flagship was heavily damaged. He managed to make his way to Algiers in August and, after a month in port undergoing repairs, he once again left Algiers with eight ships under his command. He and his small fleet were at sea for over two months before encountering a naval squadron of one Dutch, two French and two English warships on October 10, 1620. De Veenboer decided to engage them and, after a long battle at the Cartagena harbour, was killed after being struck by a cannonball shattering both his legs. A sloop containing his corpse was returned to shore by his enemies.

Another one, Claes Compaen was under actively looked for by the Dutch Navy as well:

Compaen, at certain times, often found it difficult to control his large crew who were given to heavy drinking and survived on poor rations being short of supplies. In one incident, he attacked a Spanish settlement because his fleet were running low on provisions. He and his crew were unable to defeat the Spanish defenders however and ended up retreating with heavy losses. While sailing along the Spanish coast, he also encountered the pirate Colaert of Duinkerken. Despite his fleet being outnumbered 4 to 1, he was able to escape from the stronger Colaert.
In 1626 or 1627, Compaan returned to Salé with a number of recently captured prizes. While there, he was told he had been granted a pardon from the Netherlands. He sailed immediately for home, only four days before a Dutch fleet arrived looking to apprehend him. Stopping to drop off some of his crew in Ireland, he arrived in Vlie and officially received his pardon from Prince Frederik Hendrik in the Hague. He apparently found less success in his later years, eventually dying a pauper in Oostzanen on 25 February 1660

Indeed: there were quite a few actions against them:

Ondanks deze escapade besloten de Staten-Generaal in mei 1618 dezelfde Moyen Lambert op een strafexpeditie tegen de Barbarijse zeerovers te sturen. Hij kreeg de opdracht hen op te sporen, te ‘destrueren’ (vernietigen) en hun zoveel ‘schrik ende vreese’ aan te jagen dat ze het roven voortaan wel zouden laten. In 1619 en in 1620 volgden op last van de Staten-Generaal nog twee gelijksoortige expedities naar het Middellandse-Zeegebied. Een aantal Barbarijse schepen werd inderdaad veroverd of tot zinken gebracht. Maar uiteindelijk was Lamberts vloot te klein – veertien schepen slechts – om het zeeroversprobleem echt te kunnen oplossen.

Over het geheel genomen leverden militaire expedities tegen kapers en piraten in de Gouden Eeuw weinig op. De blokkade van de Vlaamse kust was zo lek als een mandje, vanwege een chronisch tekort aan schepen en te lage gages voor de bemanningsleden. De Republiek overschatte haar eigen militaire kracht meer dan eens, zoals duidelijk bleek uit de onbevredigende afloop van de strijd bij Nieuwpoort.

Ook de verplichte bewapening voor koopvaarders was weinig succesvol, omdat de voorschriften massaal werden ontdoken. Op die manier bezuinigden kooplieden op de uitrusting van een schip en hielden ze laadruimte over. De extra opbrengsten wogen blijkbaar op tegen de risico’s. De Nederlandse konvooidienst daarentegen was wel een succes: het aantal aanvallen van kapers en piraten werd er daadwerkelijk door verminderd. De keerzijde was dat het uitrusten van de kruisers en escortes jaarlijks miljoenen guldens kostte.

Uiteindelijk was geld het grootste probleem van de Nederlandse overheid bij het bestrijden van zeerovers. De Republiek was rijk, maar de geldstromen van de Gouden Eeuw waren niet oneindig. Het operatiegebied van de Duinkerkse kapers lag precies op het knooppunt van verschillende routes. Het is dus niet vreemd dat de Duinkerkse kapers als een van de grootste bedreigingen werden beschouwd en dat daar veel aandacht aan werd besteed.

As for the story of the later Dutch admiral Maerten Tromp:

In 1610, after his father's discharge because of a navy reorganization, the Tromps were on their way to Guinea on their merchantman when they were attacked by a squadron of seven ships under command of the English pirate Peter Easton. During the fight, Tromp's father was slain by a cannonball. According to legend, the 12-year-old boy rallied the crew of the ship with the cry "Won't you avenge my father's death?" The pirates seized him and sold him on the slave market of Salé. Two years later, Easton was moved by pity and ordered his redemption.

De Ruyter was eventually sent in by 1656 to deal with the Barbary Pirates himself:

In July 1655, De Ruyter took command of a squadron of eight (of which the Tijdverdrijf [Pastime] was his flagship) and set out for the Mediterranean with 55 merchantmen in convoy. His orders were to protect Dutch trade. Meeting an English fleet under Robert Blake along the way, he managed to avoid an incident. Operating off the Barbary Coast, he captured several infamous corsairs. After negotiating a peace agreement with Salé, De Ruyter returned home May 1656.

Outright warfare between the Dutch Republic and Barbary Pirates raged on for about 200 years.

The continued piracy was due to competition among European powers. France encouraged the pirates against Spain, and later Britain and Holland supported them against France. In the 18th century, British public men were not ashamed to say that Barbary piracy was a useful check on the competition of the weaker Mediterranean nations in the carrying trade. Every power wanted to secure immunity for itself and was more or less ready to compel Tripoli, Tunis, Algiers, Sale and the rest to respect only its own trade and subjects. In 1655, British admiral Robert Blake was sent to punish the Tunisians, and he gave them a severe beating. During the reign of Charles II, the British fleet made many expeditions, sometimes together with the Dutch. In 1675 a Royal Navy squadron led by Sir John Narborough was sent to suppress piracies, and bombarded Tripoli. In 1682 and 1683, the French bombarded Algiers. On the second occasion the Algerines blew the French consul from a gun during the action.

But the biggest actions of the Dutch took place in the years where there was no war with England and no war with Spain or France (a.k.a the Dunkirk problem): so the 1610s, 1650s, early 60s and later 70s).



The latest battle took place in 1816. This is one such action.