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Thread: Svan people

  1. #11
    Senior Member Hajimurad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klarji View Post
    there were mass migrations
    my mother village in Kakheti was annihilated by Turcomans of Iran (Sefevid dinasty)
    I read then that then it was settled by migrants from Kartli and then Western Georgia - Racha, Imereti. I see it myself by surnames of the village. My mother's ancestor was from Mingrelia.
    Also there were mountain Eastern Georgians from Mtiuleti in neighbour village
    Did migrants from Daghestan (Lek, Didoy, Avar) settled and assimilated in Kakheti?

  2. #12
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajimurad View Post
    Did migrants from Daghestan (Lek, Didoy, Avar) settled and assimilated in Kakheti?
    There are some surnames of Dagestan origin in Tusheti and Kakheti - Antsukhelidze, Lekishvili.
    I don't know about early times but about the late middle ages Avarians settled more in South Georgia that was part of Ottoman empire with something like autonomy statues - Akhaltsikhe pashalik.
    This part and local Muslim Georgians were used by Ottomans in their war against free Georgian Kingdoms and Principalities. Avar Khans and Avaristan were their allies too. But then the whole Muslim population of this region were Turkified. By Russia that used religion factor.
    Though they remember who is local (yerli) who is migrant (gelme), who is Kurd. They also remember that there were many Avars.
    In the late middle ages I think there were no Avars. Christian Georgians and Muslim Avars were enemies.
    Also in Central Georgia there were classical feudal Kingdoms and Principalities while in Western Dagestan there were free tribal unions or early feudalism.where feudal.relqtions between peasant and feudal.class were much softer.
    Its said that more Georgian peasant migrated to Dagestan after their conflict with feudals then from Avaristan to Kakheti.
    My mom's ancestor is said to kill.his feudal and as Georgian states has no one police system left with his brothers for another Georgian Kingdom from Mingrelia Principality.
    Don't think than Avar peasants left massively to Christian Georgia. Also it was in fire since 15th century. There were bad conditions to live. Armenians and Jews lived in big cities. Turcomans in Southern regions. Though they were nomads and lived their life. Ottomans and Iran Turcomans did not touch them.. Ossetians settled Northern mountain regions that were more safe. Also they firstly recognized local feudal system. But they had no food as were pressed very much from Kabardians and their feudals. They had no way. While Avarians had strong Avar Khan State.

  3. #13
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    I don't know about Northern Georgian tribal unions.
    But they were also pressed much from Avar Khans.
    There are more family names and even the whole temi (teyps) of Vaynakh origins. One of them even remembers one of the Nakh languages. Though they are assimilated with local Georgians and Georginized culturally.

  4. #14
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    I don't know about Northern Georgian tribal unions.
    But they were also pressed much from Avar Khans.
    There are more family names and even the whole temi (teyps) of Vaynakh origins. One of them even remembers one of the Nakh languages. Though they are assimilated with local Georgians and Georginized culturally and ethnopsychologically..I mean Tsova temi not Kists.who are Chechens/Ingushians who migrated to Kakheti in the 19th century and lived separately without assimilating

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    Senior Member Hajimurad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klarji View Post
    There are some surnames of Dagestan origin in Tusheti and Kakheti - Antsukhelidze, Lekishvili.
    I don't know about early times but about the late middle ages Avarians settled more in South Georgia that was part of Ottoman empire with something like autonomy statues - Akhaltsikhe pashalik.
    This part and local Muslim Georgians were used by Ottomans in their war against free Georgian Kingdoms and Principalities. Avar Khans and Avaristan were their allies too. But then the whole Muslim population of this region were Turkified. By Russia that used religion factor.
    Though they remember who is local (yerli) who is migrant (gelme), who is Kurd. They also remember that there were many Avars.
    In the late middle ages I think there were no Avars. Christian Georgians and Muslim Avars were enemies.
    Also in Central Georgia there were classical feudal Kingdoms and Principalities while in Western Dagestan there were free tribal unions or early feudalism.where feudal.relqtions between peasant and feudal.class were much softer.
    Its said that more Georgian peasant migrated to Dagestan after their conflict with feudals then from Avaristan to Kakheti.
    My mom's ancestor is said to kill.his feudal and as Georgian states has no one police system left with his brothers for another Georgian Kingdom from Mingrelia Principality.
    Don't think than Avar peasants left massively to Christian Georgia. Also it was in fire since 15th century. There were bad conditions to live. Armenians and Jews lived in big cities. Turcomans in Southern regions. Though they were nomads and lived their life. Ottomans and Iran Turcomans did not touch them.. Ossetians settled Northern mountain regions that were more safe. Also they firstly recognized local feudal system. But they had no food as were pressed very much from Kabardians and their feudals. They had no way. While Avarians had strong Avar Khan State.
    Descendants of Georgians in Daghestan were of two different kinds. First were descendants of nobles, who escaped royal wrath. They were welcomed by nutsals and shamkhals as mercenaries and were assimilated to local nobility. Second were descendants of captives. They were called Qhiziqh (from Kiziki region of Kakheti) and were turned into serfs. Their condition was worst. Even today they aren't allow to marry uzdens (native peasants).

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    Senior Member Hajimurad's Avatar
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    Did Abkhazians and Mingrelians migrated to each other areas before Russian annexion?

  7. #17
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajimurad View Post
    Did Abkhazians and Mingrelians migrated to each other areas before Russian annexion?
    In the 18th century Christian Georgian population was surrounded by Muslim world. Abkhazians were mostly pagans but then Ottomans began to spread there Islam. In the 18th they with North Caucasian/Ottoman help occupied Western part of Mingrelian, annihilated Mingrelian population and began to settle there - Abkhazian feudals brought their peasants. In Abkhazian language is said that Agirua or Mingrelian means something like peasant of lowest rights. In Ossetian also Georgian means slave too. When Georgian population was annihilated by Turcomans, Persia and Ottomans their North Caucasian neighbours began their attacks from North too. Sometimes they occupied territories, sometimes they captived Christian population to sell them to Ottomans who had slave market for Christian/pagan slaves till 60-x of 19th century.

  8. #18
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajimurad View Post
    Did Abkhazians and Mingrelians migrated to each other areas before Russian annexion?
    I don't know well their relations well.
    From sources I know only Abkhazians' migration in Mingrelia after they occupied Western part of Mingrelia as in eastern part there still live local Mingrelians (not migrants of Russian period). They had guerilla fights with Abkhazian army in 1994-2004 in those areas.
    Now there is Russian border army. Mingrelian population is in apartheid. Again they have the lowest right. Like Georgian population in Akhalgori municipality. After ethnic cleansing of Georgian population in 90-x and 2008 Georgians were left only in this region. Though youth left as they are also in apartheid. Have no rights.
    I don't know why but we were never loved by neighbour empires. Once we thought it was because of our religion but Russians are out Orthodox "brothers" )

  9. #19
    Senior Member Frowning Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hajimurad View Post
    Did Abkhazians and Mingrelians migrated to each other areas before Russian annexion?
    Initially, the Abkhazian principality was subordinate to the Megrelian principality. Megrelians and Abkhazians (original) constantly fought with each other. Then, because of this, the Abkhazian principality was greatly weakened. Later, the Ottomans appeared there and even later, thanks to the support of the Ottomans, Apsua migrated there en masse, since the Ottomans did not like the Georgian population very much because of constant wars and uprisings with them, the North Caucasians were more convenient neighbors for the Ottomans. As a result, the Mingrelians raided the Apsua (this was especially common under Levan II Dadiani), and the Apsua raided the Mingrelians.

    The Mingrelian language even has a special word for Apsua, I will not say it, since it is not decent.
    We attacked each other, kidnapped people, and then made them slaves in our homelands. Both the Mingrelians and the Apsua did this.
    The Svans also frequently raided the Apsua to increase the number of slaves in Svaneti. The Apsua even have folk legends that it is better not to go to the mountains, since evil and bloodthirsty people live there.

    I don’t know why, but it was us Svans who were often portrayed as evil and bloodthirsty people, not only Georgians.

  10. #20
    Senior Member klarji's Avatar
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    Frowning Man

    Mmm... You are right
    Svans are much more "evil" and bloodthirsty then Georgians (Eastern Georgians)
    For example Eastern Georgian Mountaineers had not also state and lived in tribal unions like Upper Svans but they had much more deep and kind ethic system. Respectness to an enemy etc
    For example, Tushi Georgians did not respect Avars and respected much more Chechen-Ingushians.
    Because Avars were kidnapping children and women what was the worst thing in Georgian ethic values. But Chechen-Ingushians were kidnapping only sheep and goats, shortly food.
    My Khevsur teacher told me that Our Southern slopes are much more productive. While Mountain Chechnya is very unfertile and they had to steal to eat. Khevsur Georgians strict codes of dignity was forbidding such things and they were making also war campaign on neighbour mountain Chechen tribe unions only in answer.
    Tushis were much more softer then Khevsurs. Though they were very brave. They were professional traveller shepherds and liked more working and intellectualness.
    I think Svans would have been very bloodthirsty towards Chechens and Avars then Eastern Georgian mountain tribes were.
    For us it's less understanding that North Caucasians are proud of raids.
    Firstly raids are thought to be very dishonest. You attack an enemy when he does not expect you and only thing you do is to "fight" with peacefull population - kidnapping children and women while their fathers are at war with Persia or are not at home and have no weapon in his hand.

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