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Thread: Urheimat and migrations of turkic people(against both turanist and steppist theory)

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    Exclamation Urheimat and migrations of turkic people(against both turanist and steppist theory)

    http://archive.is/Kt533

    http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...uages.html?m=1

    http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...and_7.html?m=1

    http://chuvashlar.blogspot.com/2012/...ation.html?m=1


    Until now, we have always been condemned to two theories about the origin of Turkic peoples.One is that, Mongolian hunter gatherers who learn everything from the migrant İE is Proto turkic(steppist),the other is the theory that everything in the world is the origin of Turks(turanist).

    Although these two theories are opposite to each other, they have one thing in common.Both of them non-scientific and never tried paleolinguistic research.

    The links I share are based on paleolinguistics,archaeology,geography and history, and they examine and criticise all the views of the Turkic peoples so far.

    Please read the articles carefully and intimately,yes it is a bit long, but it uses a simple language that anyone who has no idea of it can understand.And it's fun and interesting.

    If you have questions or criticisms, please comment.I'il try to answer that.

    good reading.

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    The bump,la bumpé,das bumpe,aargghh???

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    Veteran Member Yaglakar's Avatar
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    Proto-Turkic urheimat cannot be placed there. It is too far from China proper and we know from the available data of Han chronicles on Hunnu/Xiongnu tongue that proto-Turkic language had numerous Chinese loanwords, and Chinese had numerous proto-Turkic loanwords in turn. Some of the vocabulary got into Chinese, was filtered in time, and returned back to proto-Turkic in new forms. Obviously, there was a lot of consistent dialectic interaction going on. But in between this suggested Turkic urheimat, you would have Indo-Europeans blocking the way. Take for example term Tengri (original Täŋri) which comes from Chinese Tien (original Tiän, meaning sky/celestial). How did proto-Bulgaric carry Täŋri from northern Kazakhstan origin point? This is just a small example, but everything we know places Turkic urheimat further east, much further east. Hunnu expanded from north-east Asia, both south west and far west.

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    "it is mentioned in a Chinese text of the forth BC and is the oldest Turkish word recorded. Old Turkish teŋ "equivalence, horizon"the connection is worth considering. Exp. "A name of God" < al qadr "equivalence, value in Arabic"

    Form Nişanyan dictionary

    The word " God "is derived from the word "TeN", just like the word sea("TeNiR"), and has a very clear etymology.The similarity with Chinese is coincidental,just like the word water:
    Turkish > Su, Chinese > Sui but PBT > sub, PCH > twij origin of words are different.

    The motherland of PBT cannot be close to China,because this place (aka north of great wall), desert and mountainous,and the northern part is full of taiga forest and rivers, and the language of PBT does not contain the words of these geographies.

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    From first article,please read all the articles before commenting.This is Just a summary.
    "The geolexical analysis of the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic lexemes leads to the reconstruction of a water-rich ecozone with deciduous woods and particularly beavers, located in the temperate climate near grassland away from arid steppeland and sand deserts.

    This seems to exclude any areas around the Aral Sea and the lower part of the Turan Depression, most parts of southern Kazakhstan, and most arid areas located to the south of the Eurasian Barrier, such as Dzungaria, the Taklamakan Desert (West China), the Dzungarian Gobi, the Gobi Desert (Inner Mongolia, China), the Great Lakes Depression (West Mongolia), the Alashan Desert (China), the Ordos Desert (China), etc.

    The reconstructability of the beaver ecozone seems to exclude mountain areas along the northern Tian-Shan.

    Most of the Mongolian territory may be excluded with some 80% probability based on its cold, dry environment with deforested steppeland and mountainous areas, which contradicts the requirement for multiple species of deciduous trees; beavers; ponds and rivers that should not freeze to the bottom in wintertime. Moreover, unlike the Ural Mountains, northern Kazakhstan and the Irtysh basin, all of which have high outputs of wheat, millet, barley, oats, southern Mongolia is only barely suitable for crop cultivation.

    The Ob and Yenisei demoregions cannot be completely excluded as they share environment comparable with the Tobol-Ishim-Irtysh demoregion. Nevertheless, the Yenisei demoregion can be regarded as a much less likely candidate based on the relative scarcity of salt deposits, and the prevalence of taiga forests and the taiga fauna, which is hardly reflected in the reconstructed vocabulary above. This means that the Proto-Bulgaro-Turks might have been unfamiliar with dense woodland, or at least such environment was rather uncommon.





    The reconstructed description of the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic environment

    As an additional result of the geolexical analysis above, we can make the following conclusions concerning the ethnological description of the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic people:

    They lived on the border of the deciduous woodland and open steppe that included some bushland of juniper, mugwort and various flower plants; not too far from the highlands with mineral deposits, though not necessarily in the direct vicinity of the highlands. Stone wastelands could be typical in the area.

    The winters must have been snowy, severe and windy, but the summers were relatively hot as well, as characteristic of the continental climate.

    Various deciduous trees with soft wood abounded, such as willow, aspen, linden, though the birch-tree was among the most notable ones.

    The PBT environment was mostly inhabited with relatively small steppeland or grassland fauna such as mice, snakes, stoats, badgers, foxes; sparrows, larks. Birds of prey were common near the highlands, so the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic people were probably familiar with falconry. In the riparian woods near lakes, beavers were the usual inhabitants.

    Rivers and streams were usually rather small or intermittent, whereas lakes and ponds were much more common (especially after the eastern migration of Proto-Turkic); some of them could be saline.

    They must have practiced fishing by using nets and sometimes probably building dams.

    The lakes were frequently visited by cranes and wild geese. It is logical to assume that the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic people hunted beavers, stoats, and foxes for fur to make winter clothing, which is confirmed, for instance, by the Baraba Tatars' similar hunting activities.

    Marshland regions were situated somewhere nearby. On the contrary, sand dunes were probably atypical, and the dense taiga forest was most likely unknown, either. Generally speaking, beavers and birch-trees must have been among the most distinguished features of the local environment.

    The Proto-Bulgaro-Turks bred cattle, horses, and probably goats, though there is no direct geolexical evidence for sheep. Cf. the domesticated animals ratio for the Baraba Tatars from 1889: horses: 40% , cattle: 30%, sheep: 30%, [see Myagkov (2009)]. The Proto-Bulgaro-Turks probably used horse-drawn sledges in winter; and apparently were well-familiar with horse riding, saddle and stirrup making, probably availing themselves to cowboy-style nomadism in summer, but living in houses during the wintertime, either keeping the animals in stalls (as the Baraba Tatars do) or letting them out in the open to let them dig the grass from under the snow (as the Kazakhs do). They fed on a variety of diary products, such as sour cream and quark. They practiced crop cultivation, including barley, Spelt, millet, oats, and possibly flax (necessary in fabric making).

    They used copper metallurgy (evidently, bronze) and were probably familiar with iron, as well as with silver and gold jewelry.






    2.5 Conclusions about the position of the Proto-Bulgaro-Turkic Urheimat

    By exclusion, we must conclude that the area consistent with the principle of the maximum diversity, the demographic analysis and the geolexical analysis may have been situated somewhere within the following three closely interconnected geographic areas, largely coinciding with the Tobol-Ishim-Irtysh or Ob or Yenisei demoregions.

    The Tobol-Ishim-Irtysh demoregion, which forms a sort of a fertile crescent, seems to meet nearly all the criteria stipulated by the reconstructed geographical lexemes. The location of the PBT Urheimat along the middle course of the Irtysh seems to be particularly likely.

    The Yenisei demoregion is much less likely due to the possible partial exclusion of certain reconstructed lexemes and much too eastern location, which is in contradiction with the principle of maximum diversity. However, the Ob demoregion could not be entirely dismissed at the present stage and should be kept in mind for additional consideration."

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    Urheimat in Siberia. Around rivers Lena. Upper (southern) part.

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    Veteran Member Yaglakar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuk View Post
    "it is mentioned in a Chinese text of the forth BC and is the oldest Turkish word recorded. Old Turkish teŋ "equivalence, horizon"the connection is worth considering. Exp. "A name of God" < al qadr "equivalence, value in Arabic"

    Form Nişanyan dictionary

    The word " God "is derived from the word "TeN", just like the word sea("TeNiR"), and has a very clear etymology.The similarity with Chinese is coincidental,just like the word water:
    Turkish > Su, Chinese > Sui but PBT > sub, PCH > twij origin of words are different.

    The motherland of PBT cannot be close to China,because this place (aka north of great wall), desert and mountainous,and the northern part is full of taiga forest and rivers, and the language of PBT does not contain the words of these geographies.
    Yes, teŋ - straight, suw and taŋ are also ancient Chinese loanwords in proto Turkic.

    Anna Dybo, a prominent linguist:



    "It has been known for a long time now that proto-Turkics were living somewhere in close proximity to Chinese, because they (proto-Turks) have a large number of ancient Chinese loanwords, and these borrowings flowed into proto-language, because we find their reflexes in ALL groups of Turkic languages"

    Altyn,altun - gold
    bitik, bichik - book
    küg, küj - song, melody
    lu, luŋ - dragon
    tugh, tu - banner (battle)
    zaŋ - law, custom
    chay - tea
    tyŋla - to hear
    .......

    and not only words

    chi/ci addition onto nouns - profession (example temir-chi) comes from Chinese chji-e

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    The old Turkish word "teN" ("equal, equivalent, appropriate")evolved from Old Turkish word "Teg- " "to catch up, to access, to be equivalent" is derived from the old Turkish +i(g) supplement.

    Annotation
    Old Turkish Teg > Turkish Turkish as dek", as far as " the variant form of the edifice of meaning has been interrupted.

    The old Turkish word "tïNla" "to listen" was evolved from Old Turkish verb tınıG "breath" is derived from the word old Turkish +La - appendix. This word is derived from the old Turkish tin- "breathe" verb with the old Turkish +I(G) suffix.

    The old Turkish word "bitig" was evolved from the word "writing". The old Turkish word is derived from the old Turkish verb "biti "writing, drawing".


    The Old turkic verb can be combined from a semantic point of view with the name "bi-" "sharp, sharp tip"; however, the nature of the +Ti - attachment is not clear. Mongolian style "biçig" "writing, letter" is probably an loan from Turkic. The Chinese record of the Wei Dynasty (386-534) mentioned the word "bitigçin" "writer". ▪ András Róna-Tas, Árpád Berta, west old Turk SF. 124. • The common belief that it is quoted in Chinese is lacking from the basis

    The old Turkish word "tuG"was evolved from the word "Alem, starboard, symbol attached to the spear end". The old Turkish word is synonymous with the word " Tug " which means the same in Mongolian. This word is synonymous with the Tu word, meaning the same in Chinese.

    DOERFER II.969, ▪ Gerard Claus, An Etim. Dict. of pre-Thirteenth centu SF. 464 although they consider it as a quote from Chinese, the fact that the Chinese word is quoted from Turkish or from a common source is more likely to be more powerful in terms of cultural history.

    the word " küg " is limited to some of the Oghuz languages and is not available in modern Turkic languages.PBT word song is already reconstructed: "ïr"

    the word zaN is also the same as the word küg and the PBT word for law is "töR"

    the word " tea " passing Chinese to all world languages

    the word Lu was used only in twelve animal calendar and PBT word for Dragon is "sarkañ"

    the possibility of the passing of -çi suffix through Chinese is very difficult, the voice equivalent is not similar to that of Turkish,and it is wrong to comment without knowing the pronunciation of chinese word at that time.

    I could not find the etymology of the word gold, but it is difficult to come from the Chinese because the word is very archaic(PBT language spoken around 2000-1000 BC and this word found in all Turkish language).The PBT language was far from Chinese at the time.

    By the way, I've read dybo's work and there's a lot of mistakes in it.She did not establish the etymology of words and only sought semantic relationships based on similarities.Besides, she misspelled words in proto languages.

    Her glottokronology of the Turkic languages has created without removing the loan words.that's why PBT language looks younger than itself.

    and please don't comment without reading all the articles fully.

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    Urheimat in Siberia. Around rivers Lena. Upper (southern) part
    please before comment,read all articles fully and carefully.Also I've shared a short result section above for those who get lazy.

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    the word " küg " is limited to some of the Oghuz languages and is not available in modern Turkic languages.PBT word song is already reconstructed: "ïr"

    the word zaN is also the same as the word küg and the PBT word for law is "töR"
    correction: I have a mistake here.

    There is a word " çîn " in the PBT language,and its meaning is correct,true.But the origin of this word in Chinese equevalant is teng , and the word begining T > C change is 0-300ad in chinese.DYBO argues that the PBT language is divided between 200-0bc(I don't agree),but if that were the case,the word would enter the PBT language in teN form, but it is not.This means that the word is a PBT origin.

    There is a word in the PBT language like" Kög " or " Küg "and it means "tune", but:

    . sazı kurmaya yarayan burgu, kulak" (TS. 2, s. 908). Bu kelimenin di-
    ğer şekli köğ/küğ olup eskide "şarkı, türkü, melodi, motif, hava, nağme, müzik,
    şiir, nazım" anlamlarına gelirdi (EUTS., s. 76; T. Tekin, s. 183; HŞT., s. 109).
    Görüldüğü gibi, kelime anlam değiştirmiştir. Sir Gerard Clauson (EDPT., s.
    709), A. Von. Gabain (ETG., s. 282), G. Doerfer (TMEN. LV, s. 531) bu kelimeyi Çince kaynaklı göstermişlerdir. Doç. Dr. Mehmet Ölmez'in "Uygurca Xuanzang - Biyografisindeki Çince Alıntılar"la ilgili yaptığı bir liste (bkz. TDA., cilt
    4, s. 109-143) de de bu kelime Çince sözcükler arasında yer almıştır. Bazı Çinli Türkologlar da bu görüştedirler (TT. S. 12, s. 16). Ancak söz konusu kelimeyi Çince karakterlerin ifade ettiği anlam ve tarihi kayıtlara göre ele alacak olursak söylenenlerin aksine bir durumla karşılaşmz. Bugün Türk lehçelerinde "şarkı, hava, nağme, melodi" anlamlanna gelen "küy/küü" (UT1L. 4, s. 716; KS. 2,
    s. 543) kelimesinin Çincedeki karakter şekli" ffiı "(XHC., s. 946) olup, bunun
    eski Çincedeki telaffuzu "k'iok/k'iwok" (EDPT., s. 709; ETG., s. 282), bugünkü Çincedeki teHiffuzu "qü" (XHC., s. 946)'dür. İlginç olan odur ki, bu karakter
    eski Çincede "eğri, dolambaçlı" anlamına gelmektedir (Qi Chongtian, s. 305).
    Yani Qi Chongtian 'in eski Çince kaynaklardan naklettiği bu karakterin "şarkı,
    melodi, makam ya da ve zin" anlamı bulunmaktadır. Bu karakter bugünkü "vezin, şarkı, nota" (XHC., s. 946) anlamlanm daha sonraki dönemlerde kazanmış
    olmalıdır. Bunu Xiandai Hanyu Cidian (Çağdaş Çin Dilinin Sözlüğü) adlı sözlükteki"qu" karakterine verilen açıklamadan anlıyoruz. Bu karakter sözlükte şu şekilde açıklanmaktadır: "Güney Song ve lin döneminde ortaya çıkıp Yuan döneminde moda olmuş bir çeşit vezin şeklidir. Halk şarkıları etkisiyle
    oluşmuştur. Cümle ve kelimelerin kullanımı daha canlt olup çoğu kez konuşma
    dili kullanılır. Vezinler konuşma diline daha da yaklaştmltr. Bir şarkı bir kişi tarafindan da söylenebilir, bir kaç şarkıdan bir bölüm (takım) oluşturulabilir, birkaç bölümden bir tiyatro eseri de yaztlabilir" (XHC., s. 946). Bu açıklamadan
    " qu" karakterinin "vezin, şarkı" anlamlarım Güney Song (l 127 - 1279) ve
    Jin dönemi (ll 15-1234)'nde kazandığı, Yuan dönemi (l206-1368)'nde yaygınlaştığı anlaşılıyor. Oysa yazımı 1077'de tamamlanan Divanü Lügati't - Türk'te
    "köğ" kelimesi "şiirin vezni, aruzu, mn ölçüsü, ırlamakta sesin yükselip alçalışı" olarak izah edilmiştir (DLT. , lll., s. 131). Kaşgarlı Mahmut kelimenin fiil şekli için "Er köğledi" cümlesini örnek göstermiş ve bunu "Adam ırladı, teganni
    etti; adam ırlarken birtakım ezgiler çıkardı" şeklinde açıklamıştır (DLT. llL., s.
    301). Bundan anlaşılıyor ki, Çince" Qu" karakteri "vezin, şarkı" anlamını kazanmadan önce Türkçede "köğ" kelimesi vardı ve "şiirin vezni, şarkı, şarkının
    melodisi, şarkı söylemek" gibi anlamlara gelmekteydi.
    as you can see this word also has PBT origin.

    (I hope you know Turkish,because the last quote is long,I was hang to translate.)

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