Urheimat and migrations of turkic people(against both turanist and steppist theory)

[Ryuk]

I have to make some corrections.Articles contain some errors.

1-)proto Bulgaro-Turkic language contains two words related to sand. Kumak>sand,qañïr>stream bed sand.

but indeed, the terms related the desert are not found in the PBT language, and sand and especially the stream sand are common in the Baraba steppes.

2-)the words related sheep are found in the PBT language.
sarïk>sheep,toklï>baby lamb,Koč>Ram,kuRu>Lamb
This is not a strange situation,domestic sheep remains found in the krotov culture in western Siberia at 3.millennium BC.

3-)the word iron(temir) is passed from tatar to chuvash and can not be reconstructed in the PBT language.But the words SeR(bronze),saač(tin),sïRï-(to metal smelt,to melt solid thing ) can be reconstructed.

[Ryuk]

Hello,everybody.

I decided to keep the thread up with new information every time when thread falls off .The current information is about why Y DNA O and C can't be a PBT marker.Good reading.Copy the information from someone else.

The former O3-M122 is the current O2-M122. This haplogroup does not exhibit any signs of having been originally Turkic. It is found with non-negligible frequency and diversity among a few Turkic peoples (e.g. Uyghurs in the Hotan area of SW Xinjiang: 26/478 = 5.44% O-M117, 15/478 = 3.14% O-M134(xM117), 15/478 = 3.14% O-P164(xM134), 3/478 = 0.63% O-JST002611, 1/478 = 0.21% O-KL1(xJST002611), 60/478 = 12.55% O-M122 total Uyghur/Hotan area according to Lu Yan 2011). However, a great deal of this appears to be a result of recent or historical gene flow from Chinese and Tibetans.

A subclade of O-CTS2643 looks like it has experienced a founder effect among the Naiman Kazakhs, most of whom inhabit eastern Kazakhstan, the Ili region of northern Xinjiang, southern Altai, or western Mongolia. Branches of O-F430 basal to O-CTS2643 are represented on YFull by individuals from Beijing, Tokyo, Kanagawa, Fujian, Sichuan, and Ho Chi Minh City, and O-CTS2643 itself is also well-represented in China, with members also found in Vietnam, Korea, and Japan. It appears that this clade is most likely Chinese in origin, and some Chinese man may have been very genetically successful among the ancestors of the Naimans.

It also appears that a branch of O-N6 (O-P164(xM134)), a subclade of O-M122 known for its high frequency among Polynesians and some other Austronesian populations, has experienced a founder effect in some steppe nomad population that has contributed to several modern Turkic-speaking groups (e.g. Uyghurs, Volga Tatars), though this founder effect is of minor magnitude compared to the O-CTS2643 founder effect among the Naimans. The branch that is concerned here is a typically Chinese and Korean one, not an Austronesian one; its TMRCA with the typically Austronesian subclade of O-N6 is estimated to be 13,300 [95% CI 12,100 <-> 14,600] ybp, so they only share a common ancestor around the end of the Palaeolithic era, probably somewhere in what is now eastern China, and it does not by any means indicate any sort of exotic, mysterious relationship between Turks and Polynesians. DA45, a specimen from Mongolia (radiocarbon 14C date: 2083 +- 27 BP uncal, population label: XiongNu according to Damgaard et al. 2018), also belongs to this branch according to YFull.

Members of several branches of O-F18 (TMRCA 12,500 [95% CI 11,200 <-> 13,800] ybp according to YFull), which is another typically Chinese clade and the major subclade of O-JST002611, also have been found among Turkic speakers (e.g. Azeris), but it does not seem to be any more concentrated among them than among their neighbors who speak other languages (e.g. Armenian, Persian, Brahui). Chinese/Hui merchants might be the most plausible ancestors for these individuals, or perhaps even patrilineally Chinese men working for the Mongols.

Likewise, the former C3-M217 is the current C2-M217. Within this clade, there is a very ancient division between C-L1373 and C-F1067, comparable to the division between Q-M242 and R-M207 within P-M45.

C-L1373 contains a great deal of basal diversity, but each of its many extant subclades contains rather little diversity, which suggests that it may have expanded rapidly over a wide territory and then lived under conditions unfavorable to population growth ever since its initial rapid expansion. That initial expansion seems to have been roughly contemporaneous with initial human settlement in the Americas, most likely between 15,000 and 16,000 ybp.

[Ryuk]

Nearly all members of C-M217 among Turkic speakers belong to one of four subclades:

C-M504/M401/F1918: TMRCA 8,000 [95% CI 6,200 <-> 10,000] ybp (This clade is extremely common among Hazaras, the tribes of the Senior Juz of Kazakhs, and the Kerey tribe of Kazakhs. It is also common among Mongols, especially Khalkhs, and it may also be the most common subclade of C-M217 among Kyrgyz. Despite its apparently ancient TMRCA, it appears to be comprised of at least two distinct subclades, one being found especially among Turko-Mongols, including Kalmyks, Uyghurs, Buryats, Tatars, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, and Hazaras, and another being found among Mongolo-Tunguses, including the Qing Manchus, Daurs, Xibes, Oroqens, etc. The Turko-Mongol subclade is roughly equivalent to the so-called "Genghis Khan star cluster" plus a few outliers, and its TMRCA is estimated to be 2,500 [95% CI 1,900 <-> 3,200] ybp.)

C-M86: TMRCA 3,800 [95% CI 3,100 <-> 4,600] ybp (This clade is extremely common among the Tungus proper i.e. Evenks and closely related tribes, as well as among the Oirat i.e. western Mongolic speakers and the Alshyn/Junior Juz i.e. western Kazakhs. It is slightly more closely related to C-B90, which has been found among indigenous peoples in the extreme northeast of Siberia, than it is related to other subclades of C-L1373.)

C-448del/F1756: TMRCA 5,300 [95% CI 4,400 <-> 6,400] ybp (This clade is generally uncommon but widespread among present-day speakers of Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic languages. In Kazakhstan, it seems to be found most notably among the Tore, "an aristocratic privileged class in the traditional Kazakh society, which is considered as the descendants of Genghis Khan, and therefore they are not a part of the tribal structure of the Kazakh zhuzes." One fairly old branch of this clade has been found in the Czech Republic and Poland, and another has been found in Shandong. Specimens from Bronze Age strata of some archaeological sites in Inner Mongolia and Manchuria also have been found to belong to this haplogroup, dating back at least as far as the first half of the first millennium BCE. The population of the Jinggouzi site in southeastern Inner Mongolia has been associated by some with the Donghu people mentioned in Chinese historical texts. The C-F1756 clade is slightly more closely related to North American C-P39 than either of them is related to other subclades of C-L1373.)

C-M407: TMRCA 4,100 [95% CI 3,200 <-> 4,900] ybp (Unlike the other subclades of C-M217 found among modern Turkic speakers, C-M407 belongs to the C-F1067 subclade common among Chinese and Koreans rather than to the C-L1373 subclade common among eastern nomads and indigenous Siberians and Americans. C-M407 is very common among indigenous people living in southwestern Buryatia, near the southern end of Lake Baikal, and among the Qongyrat tribe of Kazakhs. It is also common among the Dörwöd subgroup of the Kalmyks, but less so among their other subgroups. Rather large percentages of a few samples of Han Chinese from Shandong and Gansu, which are located at the eastern and western edges of northern China, respectively, have also belonged to C-M407.)

The idea of linking Turkic languages with O-M122 seems very farfetched.

Linking Turkic with C-M217 is less absurd, but it still faces a similar problem as that faced by the hypothesis that subclades of both R-M17 and R-M269 have been spread by proto-Indo-Europeans. Namely, although most extant Turkic-speaking populations contain at least some members of C-M217 (however small a fraction of the total population they may comprise), they do not all contain members of the same subclade, and even the more closely related subclades of C-M217 among those that are found in Turkic-speaking populations share a MRCA who lived in the era of the first human settlement of the American continent.

[Blondie]

Hsiung-Nu aka Xiongnu/Hunnu - original homeland of the proto-Turkic speaking peoples, in the vicinity of Ordos

No, the Xiongnu (huns) were mongoloic not turkic. Of course probably the turks were part of Xiongnu tribal confederation, but the Xiongnu names, the ruler elite (so the real xiongnu/hun ethnicity) were pure mongoloic: Liu Yuan, Modu, Laoshang, Gunchen, Ushylu, Uchjulu etc....

Their native homeland was in Mongolia:



They originated from the mongol Slab Grave culture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_Grave_culture

The Sun and moon symbol of Xiongnu that discovered by archaeologists is similar to Mongolian Soyombo symbol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyombo_symbol

[Kaspias]

No, the Xiongnu (huns) were mongoloic not turkic. Of course probably the turks were part of Xiongnu tribal confederation, but the Xiongnu names, the ruler elite (so the real xiongnu/hun ethnicity) were pure mongoloic: Liu Yuan, Modu, Laoshang, Gunchen, Ushylu, Uchjulu etc....

Their native homeland was in Mongolia:



They originated from the mongol Slab Grave culture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_Grave_culture

The Sun and moon symbol of Xiongnu that discovered by archaeologists is similar to Mongolian Soyombo symbol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyombo_symbol

The Xiongnu was a federation of mercenaries. The royal Hun line ruled the Xiongnu.
Note that it is not so simple to just equate the Xiongnu with the Huns, because the Xiongnu was a federation of mercenaries that was made up of different groups. Some of these groups the Huns conquered and subjugated, and then they made them a part of the Xiongnu. However, the key points to note are that the Huns created it, and it was ruled by the Luandi royal paternal Hun line. The Huns were also members of the Xiongnu, with the Hun khan (king) being the supreme ruler of it under the title of Shanyu. That is why one finds Q, C, R, and N haplogroups in the Xiongnu, but only the Q haplogroup in the Huns.


Over the past decade, Chinese archaeologists have published several reviews regarding the results of excavations in Xinjiang. They imply the Xiongnu's supreme ruling class. Particularly interesting are the tombs in the cemetery at Heigouliang, Xinjiang (the Black Gouliang cemetery, also known as the summer palace of the Xiongnu king), east of the Barkol basin, near the city of Hami. By typing results of DNA samples during the excavation of one of the tombs, it was determined that of the 12 men: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q1a.

[Ryuk]

Slab grave aka deerstone culture was Y DNA Q dominated paleo amerind people.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...t-was-yeniseic

For the Xiugnu aka qunnu,the elite qunnu graves in the Egyin gol region(North Central Mongolia) are very diverse as Y DNA,but Q has very few found,mostly C,R1a,I.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=37882

So qunnu was neither yeniseic nor mongolic.The most powerful possibility is that they were proto Oghuz people.

In addition, the Chinese sinitize the foreign names, so we can not understand what language they speak by looking at the names of the Qunnu Khans.

[mutabor]

Over the past decade, Chinese archaeologists have published several reviews regarding the results of excavations in Xinjiang. They imply the Xiongnu's supreme ruling class. Particularly interesting are the tombs in the cemetery at Heigouliang, Xinjiang (the Black Gouliang cemetery, also known as the summer palace of the Xiongnu king), east of the Barkol basin, near the city of Hami. By typing results of DNA samples during the excavation of one of the tombs, it was determined that of the 12 men: 6 Q1a* (not Q1a1-M120, not Q1a1b-M25, not Q1a2-M3), 4 Q1b-M378, 2 Q1a.

Turkic language sounds like the language of Ket, Chukchi and Inuit people from Canada ( haplogroup Q) mixed with Tungusic language ( haplogroup C).

[Yaglakar]

No, the Xiongnu (huns) were mongoloic not turkic. Of course probably the turks were part of Xiongnu tribal confederation, but the Xiongnu names, the ruler elite (so the real xiongnu/hun ethnicity) were pure mongoloic: Liu Yuan, Modu, Laoshang, Gunchen, Ushylu, Uchjulu etc....

Their native homeland was in Mongolia:



They originated from the mongol Slab Grave culture:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slab_Grave_culture

The Sun and moon symbol of Xiongnu that discovered by archaeologists is similar to Mongolian Soyombo symbol:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyombo_symbol

Soyombo is Tibetan lamaism symbol. Late medieval Mongols adopted Tibetan Buddhism. and you do realize that Mongolia was a long period of time Turkic speaking before it got depopulated in 10th century?



The names of rulers are all in Chinese, they were transcribed so. Even though we Uyghurs have a relic derivative name of Mode/Modun which Moden-han, which is a girls name. As far as I know hoon in Mongolian means person/human. But we also happen to have that term which carries the meaning of 'human life' or 'blood kin'.

This is Anna Dybo, a prominent linguist on Xiongnu tongue. The upper echelons of Xiongnu elite who were in contact with the Chinese were Turkic speaking, because all early transcribed vocabulary in Chinese records is of proto-Turkic and east-Iranic origin (Indo-European dairy and title loanwords in proto-Turkic). Post classical or after 3rd century AD terms in Chinese records are entirely proto-Turkic. That is why Proto-Turkic people must have been in close proximity to Chinese and Sakas. Proto-Turkic is the stage before separation into standard Turkic and Bulgaric.








and of course she talks about ancient Chinese loanwords in proto-Turkic which relates to this thread






Which essentially brings us to this:






It is the polar opposite with European Huns - we do not have the data on the language but names of rulers and nobility are Turkic.



The Huns by Hyun Jin Kim. Cambridge University Press.

[Ryuk]

The Hun language is not show the Lir Turkic(oguric) but the Shaz Turkic(common Turkic) feature.

Lir Turkic does not contain the letters Z and SH, but the Hun language contains them.

Dengizik>common turkic teNiz(Sea) but oguric teNiR>hungarian tenir(Sea)

Kamosh>a hun drink from CT kïmïz(kumys) but oguric or PBT kïmïR>mongolian kimir(kumys)

[Blondie]

The haplogroup Q is Turkic, American Indian and Mongol marker:

"Haplogroup Q is thought to have originated in Central Asia or North Asia during of shortly after the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM, 26,000 to 19,000 years ago). Q descends from haplogroup P, which is also the ancestor of haplogroups R1a and R1b. Haplogroup Q quickly split into two main branches: Q1a and Q1b. The northern Q1a tribes expanded over Siberia as the climate warmed up after the LGM. Some Q1a crossed the still frozen Bering Strait to the American continent some time between 16,500 and 13,000 years ago. Q1b tribes stayed in Central Asia and later migrated south towards the Middle East.
Many of clades of haplogroup Q1a are believed to have been brought by the Huns, the Mongols and the Turks, who all originated in the Altai region and around modern Mongolia. Haplogroup Q has been identified in Iron Age remains from Hunnic sites in Mongolia by Petkovski et al. (2006) and in Xinjiang by Kang et al. (2013). Modern Mongols belong to various subclades of Q1a, including by order of frequency Q1a2a1c (L330), Q1a1a1 (M120), Q1a1b (M25) and Q1a2a2 (YP4004)."
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_Q_Y-DNA.shtml

Haplogroup C is also mongol marker:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C-M130

So the Huns had mostly mongol genetic.
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/vie...68&context=etd

Xiongnu face reconstruction:



Pure mongoloid, and the Turkic race is turanid not mongoloid:

"The latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Caucasoid race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongoloid and Caucasoid "great races".[2][3] The idea of a Turanid race came to play a role of some significance in Pan-Turkism or "Turanism" in the late 19th to 20th century. A "Turkish race" was proposed as a Caucasoid subtype in European literature of the period. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid_race

Xiongnu-mongol culture:

"The identity of the ethnic core of Xiongnu has been a subject of varied hypotheses and some scholars, including A. Luvsandendev, Bernát Munkácsy, Henry Hoyle Howorth, Bolor Erike,[6] Alexey Okladnikov, Peter Simon Pallas, Isaac Jacob Schmidt, Hyacinth and Byambyn Rinchen,[7] insisted on a proto-Mongolian origin.

There are many cultural similarities between the Xiongnu and Mongols such as yurt on cart, mounted use of the composite bow, board game, horn bow and long song.[8] The Mongolian long song is believed to date back at least 2000 years.[9] A mythical origin of the long song is mentioned in the Book of Wei, volume 113."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Mongols

Mongolia (Xiongnu Empire) was always the homeland of mongols:

"By the eighth century BC, the inhabitants of western Mongolia evidently were nomadic Indo-European speakers, either Scythians[4] or Yuezhi. In central and eastern parts of Mongolia were many other tribes that were primarily Mongol in their ethnologic characteristics.[4]"

According to this source Xiongnu spoke a yeniseian language, but their words were very close to the mongol words:
http://www.serialsjournals.com/seria...1489049329.pdf

"hungarian tenir"

There's no such word in the hungarian language You mean "tenger"?