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Thread: Russian Orthodox Church breaks with Constantinople in row over Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Don't care. They can make all the noise they want we are all free to make our choices.

    Russia as always merely uses Orthodoxy as a political tool. If Ukranians want autocephaly then why should they be stopped other than petty politics.
    Agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by ΜΑΚΕΔΩΝ View Post
    ... ignoring the will of Ukrainian people.
    Is it really their will? Are you really so naive to believe that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Don't care. They can make all the noise they want we are all free to make our choices.

    Russia as always merely uses Orthodoxy as a political tool. If Ukranians want autocephaly then why should they be stopped other than petty politics.
    Everyone uses Church as political tool for last 2000 years. Church was instrumental in forming all modern European nations. So stop pushing blame on one single entity.

    As for Ukrainians do you know exactly the ones who want autocephaly? Why is that this issue has been pushed just now and not some 3 years ago when conflict was in its peak?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Everyone uses Church as political tool for last 2000 years. Church was instrumental in forming all modern European nations. So stop pushing blame on one single entity.

    As for Ukrainians do you know exactly the ones who want autocephaly? Why is that this issue has been pushed just now and not some 3 years ago when conflict was in its peak?
    Not true - unless politics and spirituality meet then fair enough.

    But this is bizarre - Ukraine have been asking for Autocephaly since 1921 .. The Kievan metropolis is the area where Kievan Rus were baptised under Vladimir who was born in Ukraine. There was no Russia back then.

    Vladimir was born in Ukraine many people consider the Kievan Rus as their cultural ancestor. It's just the right thing to do.
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Eph. 6:12

    Definition of untrustworthy and loose character are those that don't believe in God.


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    It's about time Russian "Orthodoxy" is recognized as the heresy it is. This is a good thing and hopefully this spells the end of Russians being the self-proclaimed leaders of the Orthodox world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    ...
    Do you oppose their autocephaly? Why/why not? Just curious to hear the Russian perspective on this issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by catgeorge View Post
    Not true - unless politics and spirituality meet then fair enough.

    But this is bizarre - Ukraine have been asking for Autocephaly since 1921 .. The Kievan metropolis is the area where Kievan Rus were baptised under Vladimir who was born in Ukraine. There was no Russia back then.

    Vladimir was born in Ukraine many people consider the Kievan Rus as their cultural ancestor. It's just the right thing to do.
    Just to clear a few things out.

    1) Kievan Rus was an umbrella term invented in 19th century by historians to designate historical period of pre-Mongol unity of Rus princedoms. There was never such state or any other political entity with this name. The name was selected to emphasize importance of religious center and that's the only value Kiev had for princes.

    2) The term Russia in one form or another could be found in political documents since pre-Mongol period. Meanwhile term Ukraine as political entity only appeared in late 19th century. Throughout its history Russia had about a dozen of different okraines, meaning borderlands. Some were in the South, some in the North, some even in Siberia. All of them were eventually given different designations. The only reason Ukraine retained its name is because in Polish documents it was official term for it.

    3) Vladimir was born in some village, allegedly near Pskov. He grew up and spent most of his life in Novgorod. Only at the end of his life he inherited title of Prince of Kiev.

    4) When Vladimir baptised Kiev the term Ukraine didn't even existed since there was no united entity thus no borderlands. There were Rus princedoms united in loose confederation which later split.

    So check your facts before you speak.

    As for current developments the very fact Ukraine was asking for Autocephaly since 1921 only proving my point. As political entity Ukraine was conceived in Austro-Hungarian Empire at the end of 19th century as a tool to hold off Russian influence spreading among Slavic Orthodox subjects of AHE. Later it was used by variety of European powers, including Hitler, to act against Russia. The demand for Autocephaly is de-facto claim for a new sovereign nation which never existed before. Now tell me please what are the forces pushing for sovereign nation today? If you think it's Ukrainians you my friend are an idiot. Think twice: why now??? Now when all polls around Ukraine show that common folk grew weary of confrontation and developing more and more friendly attitude towards Russia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    Do you oppose their autocephaly? Why/why not? Just curious to hear the Russian perspective on this issue.
    I couldn't care less. It's the problem of Orthodox clerics, let them decide.

    However in current global political context this development is alarming. The problems of current socio-economic system are such that were historically resolved through wars. So there are forces working hard on preparing world for another global conflict. At this point decisions are being made who is going to fight whom, that will determine who will be sacrificed and who will inherit the world as spoils or war at the end.

    There are forces that want Russia to be wiped out of history. Too many times it has proven to be an obstacle, too many "great" European leaders had their teeth broken against it. But they are unwilling to confront it directly, it's too dangerous.

    So now they are building hype around it to employ number of puppets to serve as cannon fodder for the job. Ukraine is one of the best for the task. It has manpower of pretty much same stock as Russians themselves and a lot of it. Far more than any other puppet on the scene. All that needs to be done is to shape that mass properly to direct its energy towards the right goal. In this context autocephaly is just one of major factors contributing to that shape.

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    So Russians are heretics just like catholics now.

    Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia, Romania, Montenegro ... (who else?)

    are the remnants of the Roman Christian religion.

    Russia was never Christian anyway, they used religion as a cultural identification nothing else.

    Pretty interesting development in Christian world.

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    No Orthodox people will be culturally oppressed under Orthodoxy. If Ukranians feel Ukranian and feel spiritually void as they are practicing Orthodoxy not the Kievan way then that's not what Orthodoxy is about..and quite frankly what Russia has to say in the matter is of little concern to anyone. Let them be.
    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.” Eph. 6:12

    Definition of untrustworthy and loose character are those that don't believe in God.


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