Grzegorz Braun's "Luther and the Protestant Revolution" documentary

[Loki]

My problem with 1517 is that the Church at the time clearly was unwilling to reform but Luther went too far. He wasn't another Wycliffe, Erasmus or Geert Grotius. It wasn't until the Council of Trent that the Church finally began to get the message.

I think he didn't go far enough. The Reformation hasn't finished, it is an ongoing process... still going on in 2018.

But yes, fact of the matter is that the Reformation was not all about Luther. There were various other influential reformers. But Luther is used by Catholics as a sort of catch-all hate figure of the Reformation. It's ridiculous.

[The Lawspeaker]

I think he didn't go far enough. The Reformation hasn't finished, it is an ongoing process... still going on in 2018.

I am aware of that. However this process led to the Wars of Religion - which divided Europe for centuries to come and gave the Turks more leeway in European affairs.

[Loki]

I am aware of that. However this process led to the Wars of Religion - which divided Europe for centuries to come and gave the Turks more leeway in European affairs.

Yeah, well the Wars of Religion wasn't his fault.. it was the fault of the Catholic Church that didn't want to grant people freedom of religion.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yeah, well the Wars of Religion wasn't his fault.. it was the fault of the Catholic Church that didn't want to grant people freedom of religion.

I think both were guilty in that respect. Both were thoroughly entrenched in their ideas. I'd say that a gradual reform (along the lines of Erasmus and the Modern Devotion) would have been better. But no: again - this shows the dangers of revolution over evolution. This shows the dangers over wanting a break with the past over reaching back to what was lost along the way.

[Loki]

I think both were guilty in that respect. Both were thoroughly entrenched in their ideas. I'd say that a gradual reform (along the lines of Erasmus and the Modern Devotion) would have been better. But no: again - this shows the dangers of revolution over evolution. This shows the dangers over wanting a break with the past over reaching back to what was lost along the way.

I don't think they wanted to break with the past, they embraced early Christianity. They wanted to break with corruption that entered the Catholic Church system over the years. And it definitely was a move of God. If it wasn't for the Reformation, we probably wouldn't have been able to read or write today, still had to confess our sins to pedophile and corrupt priests, instead of to God, we wouldn't have had Bibles to read... etc etc. No thanks. I am very grateful for the brave reformers who risked their lives to bring us the ability to worship and serve God freely, and to read the Bible and gain wisdom from it.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't think they wanted to break with the past, they embraced early Christianity. They wanted to break with corruption that entered the Catholic Church system over the years. And it definitely was a move of God. If it wasn't for the Reformation, we probably wouldn't have been able to read or write today, still had to confess our sins to pedophile and corrupt priests, instead of to God, we wouldn't have had Bibles to read... etc etc. No thanks. I am very grateful for the brave reformers who risked their lives to bring us the ability to worship and serve God freely, and to read the Bible and gain wisdom from it.

I am far from grateful: these reformers as well as the 16th century Church and their worldly rulers tore my country apart. Not just that: they tore the whole of Europe apart and for the sake of their ego's, they fought each other allowing the Turk to march into the very heart of Europe. And it took us 300 years to undo all that damage. Instead of sorting things out the normal way (debates, conclaves, pamphlets and books), they turned the whole Christendom into a slaughterhouse.

[Loki]

I am far from grateful: these reformers as well as the 16th century Church and their worldly rulers tore my country apart. Not just that: they tore the whole of Europe apart and for the sake of their ego's, they fought each other allowing the Turk to march into the very heart of Europe. And it took us 300 years to undo all that damage. Instead of sorting things out the normal way (debates, conclaves, pamphlets and books), they turned the whole Christendom into a slaughterhouse.

Needless to say, I have a different -- opposite -- view on the matter.