How do we know which I/J/C haplogroups in Europe are from paleolithic HG, neolithic farmers and IE?

[Caveat Emptor]

Well I1, I2a1, I2a2, I2c are the original European paternal lineages, yes. All descend from I-M170.

What about the J and the C? Are we able to tell which ones came with which migration periods (with the markers?)

How certain is that the paternal ancestry of I-M170 was the first in Europe in its entirety and not migrated elsewhere (wasn't there also I/I1 variety that came with indoeuropeans? Would it be possible that, for example, paleolithic hunter gatherers in Europe had I-M170 and at the same time certain indoeuropean horsemen had I-M170 in addition to R1?)

Basically is the paleolithic european ancestry certain or is that a speculation?

I am interested in this because I would like to know if we have paleolithic hunter gatherer ancestors. Yesterday we had quite a debate on whether indoeuropeans (who themselves are mixed with EHG) mixed with neolithic farmers (who themselves would be mixed with WHG). Correct me where I'm wrong

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

All I are neolithic european. But J is tricky. We know there had to be some Neolithic J if all I are neolithic because before they were IJ

[Caveat Emptor]

All I are neolithic european. But J is tricky. We know there had to be some Neolithic J if all I are neolithic because before they were IJ

Wait wait so let's clarify - "all I are neolithic" as in the original, paleolithic hunter gatherer european population mixed with incoming neolithic 12k years ago (e1b, G1, G2 etc) and created new paleo-neolithic peoples that also had I-M170 from the original paleolithics, by the time R1 indoeuropeans arrive? Correct me where wrong

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Wait wait so let's clarify - "all I are neolithic" as in the original, paleolithic hunter gatherer european population mixed with incoming neolithic 12k years ago (e1b, G1, G2 etc) and created new paleo-neolithic peoples that also had I-M170 from the original paleolithics, by the time R1 indoeuropeans arrive? Correct me where wrong

The ones who probably killed haplogroup C

[Caveat Emptor]

The ones who probably killed haplogroup C

Wait so C was EVEN BEFORE I-M170? How many replacements had there been

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Wait so C was EVEN BEFORE I-M170? How many replacements had there been

Likely.

[Caveat Emptor]

Likely.

I am confused by this point.. But all C, J and I had been paleolithic hunter gatherers right? Is it possible that I-M170 could have been among WHG and EHG (and via EHG entered into indoeuropean mix before IE arrived in Europe?) therefore be simultaneously indoeuropean as well as neolithic?

[Veslan]

Loschbour man was I2, La Brana was C. other various hunter gatherers were I2. I1 for example is only 5000 years old. There was never a J found.

We actually have a J sample from Karelia:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf (Page 43)

[Kelmendasi]

All I are neolithic european. But J is tricky. We know there had to be some Neolithic J if all I are neolithic because before they were IJ

All I isn't Neolithic European. It was already in Europe during the Paleolithic and Mesolithic, though it's numbers did see an increase in the Neolithic as well. Probably because of things like natural increase

[Kelmendasi]

We actually have a J sample from Karelia:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/bior...16477.full.pdf (Page 43)

SNP testing has suggested that he was J1. Another sample from northwestern Russia also came out as J1, it was from the Mesolithic era and located in Popovo. It was likely J1-L255.