Is the Ancient Greek civilization basically the first indoeuropean civilization directly from Yamna?

[Petros Houhoulis]

Your ignorance is shining again. The Dorians were already in Northern Greece by 2200 BC, and were already speaking Greek.

That's what I mention also, that the Proto-Hellenes came to Greece between 3.500 and 2.000 B.C., but they didn't have anything close to a civilization back then and of course they had no writing, thus we cannot claim that the Greek civilization started before the IndoEuropean invasions (with the notable exception of the Minoans, but Linear A has not been deciphered yet, so we cannot say whether they were full Greek) The Archaic Greeks cannot extend to a period before written records, this was the era of the Proto-Greeks and the Pelasgians, perhaps many more as well.

They had already been interacting with the Hellads of Greece for millenia. Hellads (not to be confused with Hellenes) means original inhabitants of Greece, see also Helladic civilization).

I didn't mention Hellads at all.

The R1 lineage arrived to the Balkans from Iberia (along with its female lineage Helena) some 5000 years ago. Originally the whole R1 lineage did not speak an ”Indo-European” language but a Basque-like non-IE language.

This is bullcrap because the R1a which exists only in East Europe is the brother subclade of R1b. Thus you cannot explain how the R1a came to Greece, because it could not have arrived form Iberia for sure.

This R1 lineage split into Illyrians, Romans and Dorians.

R1 is 1000% IndoEuropean, the discussion is closed long ago.

The Dorians of 5000 BC hadn’t yet split from the Illyrians and Romans, they all spoke the same Basque-like language.

You have no written evidence of this. No archaeological findings, nothing at all.

Before they arrive to the Balkans ca 5000 BC, the whole Balkans, Greece and Anatolia (the J2 and E lineages) spoke a Greco-Anatolian language which was very similar to proto-Greek.

No, the closest language to Tyrsenian languages is Ossetian, and it remains way too distant to be sure. The Basques were not even close.

This language contributed around 90% to Indo-European Greek. The ”Steppers” contributed ca 10% to the Greek language. The arrival of those caused the Greco-Anatolian language to split into Greek, Lydian, Phrygian etc. Anyway the Dorians were already in Greece by 2200 BC which is when the palaces in Knossos and Troy first appear and Linear A first appear (which has been deciphered as being Aeolic Greek).

Nope. The "Greeks" were IndoEuropean long before the Dorians. All migration waves coming originally from Ukraine contributed to Greek in some degree.

The Dorians were already of three lineages by then and spoke Greek having been interacting with the Hellads for millenia already from the time they were in the Balkans.

The Pelasgians were the Myceneans. Before the generation of Arcas, all the Arcadians were called Pelasgians. They were not just E, but also R1 and E. Only the Hellads were only J and E and spoke Greco-Anatolian from which proto-Greek evolved (with the additional contribution of the Basque like language of the R1’s)

All that is crap. R1 came from the East, it might have passed through Greece before arriving to Ukraine though, this is only a conjecture.

[Token]

Proper 'Hellenic' civilization and culture only came to be after Proto-Mycenaeans migrated from somewhere around the Ural mountains to modern-day Greece and merged with pre-IE Minoans to form the widely known Myceanaean civilization. Greek/Mycenaean culture is clearly intrusive and originated somewhere much more northern than modern Greece, probably in the Middle-Late Bronze Age steppes.

[HoboJim]

What about the Hittites?

[PAGANE]

The Varna Culture Bulgaria, dated ca. 4400-4100 BC. The representatives of the Varna culture were found to be carriers of the Y chromosome haplogroups R1, CT, G2, G2a2b2b
Durankulak Archaeological Reserve is an archeological site located in the Durankulak Lake near the village of Durankulak, northeastern Bulgaria.
On its territory were discovered the first beginnings of written characters in human history (5000 - 4800 BC), the forerunner of prehistoric Danube prototype, as well as the oldest phase (beginning 5500 - 5400 BC), called Blatnitsa, on The European Neolithic Culture of Hamanjia The Durankulak findings are considered as an argument for the Black Sea Flood hypothesis
To the south of the abandoned first settlement in this era in 5300 BC. in the Nivata locality, the world's largest known paleohistoric necropolis, where a total of 1400 burials are located and 1204 graves have been explored, emerges. It was used for over 1000 years up to 3800 BC. The men are buried with their backs facing north, while the women and children are bent sideways, with tools, food, gifts, utensils and votive figures being laid around them.
On the west shore of the lake. between the island and the monument, burial mounds erected in the necropolis were erected in the proto-Bronze Age (around 3500 - 3400 BC); they mark the beginning of the occupation of these lands by the Proto-Thracians.
By 3400 to 3000 BC the climate is significantly worsening, and sea level rises by about 4 - 5 m above the present, which, combined with the invasions of northern tribes, results in severe depopulation of the area.
The saltworks is an archeological site from the 6th - 5th millennium BC, representing the remains of an ancient city near Provadia, Bulgaria. Most of the residential buildings explored in the settlement were two-storeyed. The population is estimated to have reached about 350 inhabitants, making Salt Lake the first known city in European history. The settlement was enclosed by a protective wall with a wall thickness of up to 4.3 m. a city on our continent (4700-4200 BC), which consists of a fortified stone walled settlement (citadel), a salt production complex, a ritual field (a pit sanctuary) and necropolises. It covers an area of ​​about 200 acres. Its origin and development is related to the Mirovsko salt deposit on which it is located. Cooking brine in ceramic vessels is the earliest recorded case in Europe of this technology for salt production, and Provadia-Salt-pans is the oldest salt extraction center on the old continent. So far, four salt evaporation facilities dating to the late Neolithic and Late Chalcolithic (5200-4200 BC) have been established in the area of ​​the salt extraction center.
The middle and late chalcolithic settlement of Provadia-Saltnitsa is exceptionally well fortified. The massive and high stone walls that threaten it from all sides are the best protection both for the wealth accumulated as a result of the production and marketing of salt, and for the lives of its owners. So far, there is no evidence of such a stone citadel in the 5th millennium BC. in Europe, which is, among other things, an incredible achievement of construction art. The remains of three prehistoric stone defense facilities along the periphery of the settlement mound have been discovered. The best studied is stone wall 2, dating from the beginning of the Late Chalcolithic. The face of the wall is traced almost along its entirety, with the exception of two relatively small undiscovered sections. In some places the face of the wall is preserved up to a height of 2.60 m and in other sections up to 3.50 m. The fortress wall has an irregular rounded shape with a maximum outer dimensions of 71 x 75 m and covers about 4 acres. The total length of the second stone wall, measured on the outer face, is about 234 m. The inner face, preserved at a height of 0.80 to 1.50 m, is revealed about half of its length, and about 1 m in one section. 80 m. The thickness of the base of the fortress wall varies from 2.40 to 4.50 m, but is most often between 3 and 3.40 m; this implies a wall height of between 6 and 7 m. The fortress is made up of mostly calcareous stones, using yellow or gray-brown clay as the binder.
Stone wall 3 is the last defense system built during the Late Chalcolithic. It also includes radial "walls", which are a unique element of the fortification system and their appearance in the Stone Fortress of the Salt Lake is the first in the Eastern Mediterranean. They are built on the stone lining, with which the slope of the settlement mound is pre-reinforced. Their base is made of larger stones, on which are piled small, tightly stacked next to each other. The solder between them is of yellow solid clay. The cross section of these structures is approximately triangular, with their height ranging from 1.5 m below to 0.70 m at the top. So far, 13 radial "walls" have been discovered.
The fortress wall itself is difficult to recover; large stones have been preserved from its base in places, others have fallen on the slope or are missing. However, the available ones need to be strengthened.
Stone wall 1 is the earliest, dating to the Middle Chalcolithic. In the first years of the excavation, its gate and flanking stone bastions were discovered. Then, under two projects funded by the Ministry of Culture, a roof over the remains was constructed.

[Reason1234]

'The Rise of Bronze Age Society' (Kristiansen and Larsson, 2005):

“[the archaeologist] Sylvia Penner has recently proposed that the archaeological distributions of the early second millennium BC represent a conquest migration into the Aegean, leading to the formation of the shaft grave dynasty. This interpretation is not far from that of Robert Drews. Some evidence would seem to support Penner’s argument, including the osteological determination of the skeletons in the B-circle (Angel 1972), where the male population is characterised as Nordic Caucasian (robust and tall), in some opposition to the female population, which is more Mediterranean. The recently discovered shaft grave of a chiefly male warrior from Aegina from the LMH [Late Middle Helladic] period belongs in the same group as the male chieftains of the B-circle, and he had injuries and muscle insertions on the right arm from sword fighting (Manolis and Neroutsos 1997). This evidence may show the intrusion of a new ruling segment of warriors and charioteers. They employed the specific wavy band decoration from antler, bone and ivory of the chariot complex on several of the grave stelae with horse and chariot motifs in the A- and B-circles at Mycenae (Younger 1997). Other evidence, however, points to some continuity between MH [Middle Helladic] and LH [Late Helladic], although not in the settlement system (Maran 1995).

[We are aware that the anthropological evidence and the categorisations employed are subject to criticism. More recently this problem has been critically analysed by Day (2001), within a broad comparative framework of Indo-European osteological data. even here, the shaft grave osteological material shows connections to the steppe of eastern Europe/Romania.]

What can be inferred with some certainty is the importation of a new horse and chariot package, including steppe horses. This was recently verified by an analysis of the two horse burials of paired horses from Dendra from the Late MH period, which showed they were of the larger steppe type (Payne 1990). They were well bred and out of an established breeding tradition. Thus, trade in horses, accompanied by new specialists in chariotry and horse dressage, would seem to be a necessary implication of the evidence. In addition our previous analyses of relations between the east Mediterranean and the Carpathians underpins this picture of well-organised long-distance trade connections and travels of chiefly retinues and specialists.

Concluding hypotheses:

As the textual evidence of the Near East and Egypt describes conquest migrations and the influx of specialists, warriors and rulers of Aryan origin, it may seem justified to reassess some earlier interpretations of the origin of the shaft grave kings. […] The material culture of chariotry in the Aegean was accompanied by new burial rituals exemplified by the shaft graves in the B- and A-circles, later followed by tholos tombs, all of which resemble the burial forms in Sintashta and the steppe region. In addition the physical anthropology of the male chiefs in the B-circle showed so-called Caucasian-Nordic traits, in opposition to the women buried there. Settlement evidence further shows a break or reorganisation on the mainland during this period (Maran 1995). Also, new foreign weapon types such as lances with split socket are spread along the same lines of communication, but extend further into the east Mediterranean. … this additional evidence suggests that we are dealing with a conquest migration in the Aegean penetrating further into the east Mediterranean to Crete (the end of the Old Palace period). From here they joined forces with the Hyksos in Egypt, as originally suggested by Mylonas (1972).”

(p.182-185)






'The Rise of Bronze Age Society' (Kristiansen and Larsson, 2005) LINK

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PDF of Sylvia Penner's text Schliemanns Schachtgräberrund und der Europäische Nordosten:

pages 1-50

pages 51-100

pages 101-150

pages 151-215


plates 1-25

plates 26-62

[Reason1234]

'Population Genomics of Bronze Age Eurasia' (Allentoft et al 2015):

"European Late Neolithic and Bronze Age cultures such as Corded Ware, Bell Beakers, Unetice, and the Scandinavian cultures are genetically very similar to each other... The close affinity we observe between peoples of Corded Ware and Sintashta cultures suggests similar genetic sources of the two. […] Although we cannot formally test whether the Sintashta derives directly from an eastward migration of Corded Ware peoples or if they share common ancestry with an earlier steppe population, the presence of European Neolithic farmer ancestry in both the Corded Ware and the Sintashta, combined with the absence of Neolithic farmer ancestry in the earlier Yamnaya, would suggest the former being more probable. […]

The Andronovo culture, which arose in Central Asia during the later Bronze Age, is genetically closely related to the Sintashta peoples... Andronovo represents a temporal and geographical extension of the Sintashta gene pool. […] Among Bronze Age Europeans, the highest lactose tolerance frequency was found in Corded Ware and the closely-related Scandinavian Bronze Age cultures. [...]

The enigmatic Sintashta culture near the Urals bears genetic resemblance to Corded Ware and was therefore likely to be an eastward migration into Asia. As this culture spread towards Altai it evolved into the Andronovo culture […]

Our analyses support that migrations during the Early Bronze Age is a probable scenario for the spread of Indo-European languages, in line with reconstructions based on some archaeological and historical linguistic data."

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ze_Age_Eurasia




Middle and Late Bronze Age cultures Sintashta, Andronovo, Okunevo, and Karasuk with the eastward migration indicated. Black markers represent
chariot burials (2000–1800 BC) with similar horse cheek pieces, as evidence of expanding cultures.