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Thread: Origin and identity of the Macedonian people

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Yugoslav communists weren't only responisble for the formation of the present day Macedonian ethnicity, but also for the Bosniak and Montenegrin ones. Hiding under the false paroles of brotherhood and unity all they managed to do was drive an even bigger wedge between the people.
    According to you, what were the Macedonians before the Yugoslav commies created the Macedonian ethnicity or better still, part of what ethnicity they were?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    According to you, what were the Macedonians before the Yugoslav commies created the Macedonian ethnicity or better still, part of what ethnicity they were?
    As Archduke's 'option 2' implies they had a regional identity they identified with. They weren't an ethnicity as Serbs and Bulgarians were, even though some Macedonians, while keeping their regional identity, identified either with the former or the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    As Archduke's 'option 2' implies they had a regional identity they identified with. They weren't an ethnicity as Serbs and Bulgarians were, even though some Macedonians, while keeping their regional identity, identified either with the former or the latter.
    One hundred years ago, most of the Macedonians identified as Bulgarians and Greeks.
    Some identified themselves as Serbs, Vlachs or Albanians...
    The cemeteries in my hometown are split on two parts.
    As a child, I've heard the people calling one part Bulgarian and the other Greek...
    My grandpa's ancestors are buried in the Bulgarian part and my grandma's ancestors are buried in the Greek part.
    I always wondered why there are Bulgarian and Greek but no Macedonian part...
    But that was back when I was a child...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspar View Post
    One hundred years ago, most of the Macedonians identified as Bulgarians and Greeks.
    Some identified themselves as Serbs, Vlachs or Albanians...
    The cemeteries in my hometown are split on two parts.
    As a child, I've heard the people calling one part Bulgarian and the other Greek...
    My grandpa's ancestors are buried in the Bulgarian part and my grandma's ancestors are buried in the Greek part.
    I always wondered why there are Bulgarian and Greek but no Macedonian part...
    But that was back when I was a child...
    That reminds me of some tales from Bosnia, where diffrent siblings from the same family identify as different ethnicities. In my opinion, Macedonians would have been much better off had they got assimilated into either one of their neighbour South Slavic ethncities. Perhaps the communists from Macedonia did believe they were doing good by their own people by enforcing a separate ethnic identity and a formation of a unique Macedonian republic, but now the situation is such that in stead of living peacfully as part of one large country, they (you) live in a bi-ethnic state and are in danger of being completely overwhelmed by Albanians. Strength in unity isn't just an empty phrase, but people here are weary of it since the communists used that term to cover up their divide and conquer policy that ended up with all of us living bitter and poor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    That reminds me of some tales from Bosnia, where diffrent siblings from the same family identify as different ethnicities. In my opinion, Macedonians would have been much better off had they got assimilated into either one of their neighbour South Slavic ethncities. Perhaps the communists from Macedonia did believe they were doing good by their own people by enforcing a separate ethnic identity and a formation of a unique Macedonian republic, but now the situation is such that in stead of living peacfully as part of one large country, they (you) live in a bi-ethnic state and are in danger of being completely overwhelmed by Albanians. Strength in unity isn't just an empty phrase, but people here are weary of it since the communists used that term to cover up their divide and conquer policy that ended up with all of us living bitter and poor.
    How would you know if we would have been better off if assimilated?

    First of all, the Macedonians of Greece are already assimilated and most of them are perfect Greeks, look at Darknesswin, Kaido or some others.
    They all mentioned that they had some Slavic speaking ancestors in the past.

    The same with the Macedonians of Bulgaria.
    They are perfect Bulgarians today.

    The Macedonians of today Rep. of Macedonia should have been perfect Serbs but it didn't happen...

    But my question is, why we would have been better off with some Slavic speaking nations and not some non Slavic speaking?

    I don't feel someone close automatically to me if he is a Slavic speaker!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Yugoslav communists weren't only responisble for the formation of the present day Macedonian ethnicity, but also for the Bosniak and Montenegrin ones. Hiding under the false paroles of brotherhood and unity all they managed to do was drive an even bigger wedge between the people.
    it wasn't called the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes for nothing before the monarchy changed it to Yugoslavia which was a mistake. Can't blame the commies for the name Yugoslavia for example but they are to blame for the creation of the "republics" after WW2.
    Last edited by Dick; 11-24-2018 at 10:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Yugoslav communists weren't only responisble for the formation of the present day Macedonian ethnicity, but also for the Bosniak and Montenegrin ones. Hiding under the false paroles of brotherhood and unity all they managed to do was drive an even bigger wedge between the people.
    I don't really agree that these ethnic identities were invented by Yugoslav communists. They were consequences of different political circumstances.

    The Bosniak identity was first invented by Austro-Hungarian statesman Bni Kllay to divide South Slavs even further. Shortly after, the Bosniak ethnicity started gaining in prominence. Although they were referred to as ethnic 'Muslim' many of them during that period identified as Bosniaks and lobbied for a recognition of the Bosniak ethnicity. Titoist Yugoslavia officially recognized the Bosniak ethnicity, but did not invent yet. Had Bosnian & Herzegovinan Muslims not been identifying as 'ethnic Bosniak', they still likely would have been socially/politically separate from Orthodox Serbs like they are today.

    Likewise with Macedonians, they identified as a separate ethnicity prior to Tito's recognition. The continued separation of their peoples from Bulgaria under Yugoslavia strengthened their ethnic identity, but the first mentions of Macedonians identifying as a separate ethnicity are from the late 1800's. Tito recognized them by giving into popular demand rather than starting up something on his own. If Yugoslavia was a capitalist country, they'd probably still be recognized as an independent ethnicity.

    Montenegro's political separation began long before communism. What separated Montenegro from the rest of Serbia was that Montenegro was only an Ottoman vassal state whereas Serbia was fully incorporated into the Ottoman Empire. At the time of unification to form the 'Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes'; Montenegro was already its own kingdom. This political separation existed before Yugoslavia started and it continued to exist after Yugoslavia ended. I don't think communists can be blamed for separating Montenegro from Serbia, only for exasperating the division by recognizing them as them as a nationality separate from Serbs. If Montenegro was annexed by Serbia before 1918, then they'd probably identify as ethnic Serbs and Montenegro would be part of Serbia today. Can't say the same for B&H though since religion is enough of a tool to separate them from Serbs regardless of what they identify as ethnically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    The Yugoslav communists weren't only responisble for the formation of the present day Macedonian ethnicity, but also for the Bosniak and Montenegrin ones. Hiding under the false paroles of brotherhood and unity all they managed to do was drive an even bigger wedge between the people.
    The Macedonian project was the most succesful it seems. As far as I see statistics, half of the population of Montenegro view their language as Serbian. And the Montenegrin language itself is not artificially separated from Serbian as Macedonian is from Bulgarian. One Macedonian told me that the older generations speak exactly like Bulgarians, but those People are dying or are already dead.

    Serbs are everywhere in ex Yugoslavia. From Macedonia till Slovenia. I am not sure if the yugoslav government was also anti Serb.

    Btw I think that the relations between Serbia and montenegro are quite natural. I believe that if Macedonia remained part of Bulgaria, the situation between us would have been the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CommonSense View Post
    As Archduke's 'option 2' implies they had a regional identity they identified with. They weren't an ethnicity as Serbs and Bulgarians were, even though some Macedonians, while keeping their regional identity, identified either with the former or the latter.
    Serbs should not be included in a discussion when it comes to macedonian identity.

    Your People in Macedonia were those few hundred people Who studied in Belgrade and got brainwashed. The large mass of people were Bulgarian oriented. Then Greek.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archduke View Post
    The Macedonian project was the most succesful it seems. As far as I see statistics, half of the population of Montenegro view their language as Serbian. And the Montenegrin language itself is not artificially separated from Serbian as Macedonian is from Bulgarian. One Macedonian told me that the older generations speak exactly like Bulgarians, but those People are dying or are already dead.

    Serbs are everywhere in ex Yugoslavia. From Macedonia till Slovenia. I am not sure if the yugoslav government was also anti Serb.

    Btw I think that the relations between Serbia and montenegro are quite natural. I believe that if Macedonia remained part of Bulgaria, the situation between us would have been the same.
    Our relationship isn't natural at all. Yesterday they were proud Serbs, singing songs about Kosovo and heroism so much that foreign observers like Neubacher described them as bigger Serbs than Serbians themselves, while today they acknowledge Kosovo's independence and vote against us in each and every possible case, such as the recent one in Interpol. Their entire history is being forge to erase every trace of the Serbian name and to portray us as occupators of some imaginary ancient Doclean land. Montenegrin high officials used to be Serbian patriots, now such people seek to undermine and discriminate Serbs at every step. With all due respect to Bulgarians, what happened to the Serbian people has no paralel in recent history.

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