Does Loki, or Yahweh equal Surt?

[Frigga]

I know that what I'm about to post may be a little radical in many eyes. Please bear with me.

I feel that the Northern European Sagas and Myths have been greatly Christianized by the Christian Monks that transcribed them down. Don't get me wrong. As much as I would love to know all of the secrets of our heathen heritage, I am glad that we have what we do have. But, I can't help but think that what we do have has been partially tainted. Or, maybe it's a warning of things to come. I'm uncertain.

What I'm going to concentrate on on this thread is Surt, and the assertiation that Loki is not the Satan figure in Norse mythology.

Now, I'm not the best scholar around. So, if there are gaps in my theories, please correct me.

In the Norse mythology, Loki plays a strong part. He is descended from nine giantesses, which suggest chaos. He is throughout the mythology, and he usually gets into really bad situations from either poor judgement, or his lies. He fathers a lot of really odd children, one who is the death of Odin, another the death of Thor, and another who is the keeper of the dead. But, he is also the mother of the steed of Odin, from having to fix a scrape that he had gotten himself into.

Now, a lot of people have theorized that Loki is the Satan figure of Norse mythology, because, according to the stories that we have written down, Loki turns evil, and because of his jealuousy, he causes the death of Baldur, and in turn is bound until Ragnarok.

I personally don't buy that whole explanation.

Now, Surt is a desert demon.(This is my own belief. Feel free to disagree) He was the giant that guarded the relm of Muspell since before Creation. He sets fire to the world at Ragnarok. I personally believe, (and here is where I get radical, feel free to disagree with me ) that Surt is the representation of Yahweh. I am not trying to say that this is truth. I just feel that this makes sense. If you think about it, it does make sense. Surt and his demons make fire upon the world. But-the world is reborn, and Baldur returns as one of the rulers of the world. Man is also preserved, by those who hide in Yggdrasil. Maybe Yggdrasil also represents the knowledge of our ancestors, and not just ourselves. Maybe researching our past, and hiding our true selves so to speak in the anthology of the past prepares us to safeguard our future.


I think that the conversion of our ancestors may have been a Ragnarok. Maybe there are many Ragnaroks, even in our own lives. But, I believe that there is the possibility that Ragnarok has happened. Because there was long period that heathenism was underground. So, maybe that could have been our Ragnarok. But, there is always the possibility that it is still to come. I don't know. I try to stay open-minded.

Please, feel free to discuss this topic. I am curious as to what others have to say, whether they are Heathen or Christian.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Surtr does come from the south, but I don't think he has any relation to jews/hebrews. Nothing else about him matches up, and it is unlikely that the ancient norsemen would have had much, if any, contact with the jews/hebrews, certainly not enough to construct a god based on them, which in any case bears no resemblance to any jews they may have met, which would have been traveling traders.

As far as a 'satan figure' goes, polytheistic religions don't really have a nebulous catch-all for everything evil, so you can't really say any particular god is a 'satan figure'.

[Lyfing]

Hey Frigga'sSpindle,

That's a pretty interesting take on the myths. It's good to see someone thinking about them...

Here are a couple of quotes from Rydberg's Teutonic Mythology that you might find interesting..

A closer examination ought to have shown that Gylfaginning's conception of "Muspell's sons" is immensely at variance with the mythical. Under the influence of Christian ideas they are transformed into a sort of angels of light, who appear in Ragnarok to contend under the command of Surt "to conquer all the idols" (sigra öll goðin - Gylfaginning 4) and carry out the punishment of the world. While Völuspá makes them come with Loki in the ship Naglfar, that is, from the terrible rocky isle in the sea over which eternal darkness broods, and while Lokasenna makes them come across the Darkwood, whose name does not suggest any region in the realm of light, Gylfaginning tells us that they are celestial beings. Idols and giants contend with each other on Vigrid's plains; then the heavens are suddenly rent in twain, and out of it ride in shining squadrons "Muspell's sons" and Surt, with his flaming sword, at the head of the fylkings. Gylfaginning is careful to keep these noble riders far away from every contact with that mob which Loki leads to the field of battle. It therefore expressly states that they form a fylking by themselves (Í þessum gný klofnar himinninn, og ríða þaðan Múspells synir; Surtur ríður fyrstur, &c. . . . en Múspells synir hafa einir sér fylking, og er sú björt mjög - ch. 51). Thus they do not come to assist Loki, but to put an end to both the idols and the mob of giants. The old giant, Surt, who, according to a heathen skald, Eyvind Skaldaspillir, dwells in sökkdalir, in mountain grottos deep under the earth (see about him, No. 89), is in Gylfaginning first made the keeper of the borders of "Muspellsheim," and then the chief of celestial hosts. But this is not the end of his promotion. In the text found in the Upsala Codex, Gylfaginning makes him lord in Gimle, and likewise the king of eternal bliss. After Ragnarok it is said, "there are many good abodes and many bad"; best it is to be in Gimle with Surt (margar eru vistar góðar og margar illar, bezt er að vera á Gimle með Surti). The name Surt means black. We find that his dark looks did not prevent his promotion, and this has been carried to such a point that a mythologist who honestly believed in Gylfaginning saw in him the Almighty who is to come after the regeneration to equalise and harmonise all discord, and to found holy laws to prevail for ever.

Under such circumstances, it may be suggested as a rule of critical caution not to accept unconditionally Gylfaginning's statement that the world of light and heat which existed before the creation of the world was called Muspell or Muspellsheim. In all probability, this is a result of the author's own reflections. At all events, it is certain that no other record has any knowledge of that name. But that the mythology presumed the existence of such a world follows already from the fact that Urd's fountain, which gives the warmth of life to the world-tree, must have had its deepest fountain there, just as Hvergelmir has its in the world of primeval cold, and Mimir has his fountain in that wisdom which unites the opposites and makes them work together in a cosmic world.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/078.php

Surtr, Durinn, Durnir, Sökkmímir, are, therefore, synonyms, and designate the same person. He has a son who is designated by the synonyms Suttungur, Fjalar, Mjöðvitnir (Miðvitnir). Suttung has a son slain by Odin, when the latter robs him of the mead of inspiration, and a daughter, Gunnlod. The giant maid, deceived and deplored by Odin, is consequently the daughter of Surt's son.

Light is thus shed on the myth concerning the giant who reappears in Ragnarok, and there wields the sword which fells Frey and hurls the flames which consume the world. It is found to be connected with the myth concerning the oldest events of mythology. In time's morning we find the fire-being Surt - the representative of subterranean fire - as a creative force by the side of Mimir, who is a friend of the gods, and whose kinsman he must be as a descendant of Ymir. Both work together in peace for similar purposes and under the direction of the gods (Völuspá 9, 10). But then something occurs which interrupts the amicable relations. Mimir and Surt no longer work together. The fountain of creative force, the mead of wisdom and inspiration, is in the exclusive possession of Mimir, and he and Urd are together the ruling powers in the lower world. The fire-giant, the primeval artist, is then with his race relegated to the "deep dales," situated to the southward (Völuspá 52), difficult of access, and dangerous for the gods to visit, and presumably conceived as located deeper down than the lower world governed by Mimir and Urd. That he tried to get possession of a part of "Óðrærir" follows from the position he afterwards occupies in the myth concerning the mead. When daylight again falls on him from the mythic fragments extant, his son has captured and is in possession of a supply of mead, which must originally have come from Mimir's fountain, and been chiefly composed of its liquid, for it is skaldic mead, it too, and can also be designated as Óðrærir (Hávamál 107), while the son is called "the mead-wolf," the one who has robbed and conceals the precious drink. Odin captures his mead by cunning, the grandson of the fire-giant is slain, the devoted love of the son's daughter is betrayed, and the husband selected for her is deceived and removed. All this, though done for purposes to benefit gods and men, demands and receives in the mythology its terrible retribution. It is a trait peculiar to the whole Teutonic mythology that evil deeds, with a good purpose, even when the object is attained, produce evil results, which develop and finally smother the fruits of the good purpose. Thus Surt has a reason for appearing in Ragnarok as the annihilator of the world of the Asas, when the latter is to make room for a realm of justice. The flames of revenge are hurled upon creation.

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/rydberg/089.php

Later,
-Lyfing

[Barreldriver]

^I am curious, to which army do the human's who achieve god status belong? The parallels drawn in that first writ leads me to believe that perhaps Surt is the Christian god, his followers are his army, Loki's horde being those devoted to the chaos of life, those who are free, do as they please, when they please as they please regardless of consequence, Odin's armies those of the ancient polytheists and his Einherjar (The Einherjar being those "God-Men"? The polytheists the "idol worshipers").

[Lyfing]

^I am curious, to which army do the human's who achieve god status belong?

I am curious, how do human's achieve god status..?? I've noticed you throw this notion around some, and I wonder what you mean by it..??

The parallels drawn in that first writ leads me to believe that perhaps Surt is the Christian god, his followers are his army, Loki's horde being those devoted to the chaos of life, those who are free, do as they please, when they please as they please regardless of consequence, Odin's armies those of the ancient polytheists and his Einherjar (The Einherjar being those "God-Men"? The polytheists the "idol worshipers").

That's what it looks like..

Later,
-Lyfing

[Barreldriver]

I am curious, how do human's achieve god status..?? I've noticed you throw this notion around some, and I wonder what you mean by it..??



That's what it looks like..

Later,
-Lyfing

I'm thinking that it is specific to the individual, an individual achieves god status when he or she uses their full potential and is remembered for it, preserved by legend and lore, and as a consequence many of these "man gods" would be Einherjar, since glorious military achievement is often remembered for ages.


and another note I didn't mention in my last post, Surt like the Christian god seems to usher a doom of fire upon the earth, another parallel me thinks.

[Aemma]

I know that what I'm about to post may be a little radical in many eyes. Please bear with me.

I feel that the Northern European Sagas and Myths have been greatly Christianized by the Christian Monks that transcribed them down. Don't get me wrong. As much as I would love to know all of the secrets of our heathen heritage, I am glad that we have what we do have. But, I can't help but think that what we do have has been partially tainted. Or, maybe it's a warning of things to come. I'm uncertain.

What I'm going to concentrate on on this thread is Surt, and the assertiation that Loki is not the Satan figure in Norse mythology.

Now, I'm not the best scholar around. So, if there are gaps in my theories, please correct me.

In the Norse mythology, Loki plays a strong part. He is descended from nine giantesses, which suggest chaos. He is throughout the mythology, and he usually gets into really bad situations from either poor judgement, or his lies. He fathers a lot of really odd children, one who is the death of Odin, another the death of Thor, and another who is the keeper of the dead. But, he is also the mother of the steed of Odin, from having to fix a scrape that he had gotten himself into.

Now, a lot of people have theorized that Loki is the Satan figure of Norse mythology, because, according to the stories that we have written down, Loki turns evil, and because of his jealuousy, he causes the death of Baldur, and in turn is bound until Ragnarok.

I personally don't buy that whole explanation.

Now, Surt is a desert demon.(This is my own belief. Feel free to disagree) He was the giant that guarded the relm of Muspell since before Creation. He sets fire to the world at Ragnarok. I personally believe, (and here is where I get radical, feel free to disagree with me ) that Surt is the representation of Yahweh. I am not trying to say that this is truth. I just feel that this makes sense. If you think about it, it does make sense. Surt and his demons make fire upon the world. But-the world is reborn, and Baldur returns as one of the rulers of the world. Man is also preserved, by those who hide in Yggdrasil. Maybe Yggdrasil also represents the knowledge of our ancestors, and not just ourselves. Maybe researching our past, and hiding our true selves so to speak in the anthology of the past prepares us to safeguard our future.


I think that the conversion of our ancestors may have been a Ragnarok. Maybe there are many Ragnaroks, even in our own lives. But, I believe that there is the possibility that Ragnarok has happened. Because there was long period that heathenism was underground. So, maybe that could have been our Ragnarok. But, there is always the possibility that it is still to come. I don't know. I try to stay open-minded.

Please, feel free to discuss this topic. I am curious as to what others have to say, whether they are Heathen or Christian.

Great post FriggasSpindle. It is a thought-provoking one to be sure.

I guess my own take on such comparisons, that is looking at similar themes between different systems of religious thought, has more to do with whether or not such can be effectively drawn in the end, similar themes that is.

Though it is always interesting to do such comparative studies, I personally don't feel comfortable at all making thematic comparisons between two very different systems of thought such as Christianity and Heathenry. I don't think that we can really properly apply themes which have developed among another people and their creed (monotheistic Abrahamic thought in this case) to our own indigenous beliefs (polytheist Germanic thought). I would be more comfortable drawing parallels between Germanic Heathenry and Celtic Recon let's say, since both are polytheistic indigenous spiritual ways.

I agree with Sword in that the notions of 'bad' or 'evil' in Germanic Thought are entirely different than those offered in Christian Thought. We don't have a 'satan' equivalent in Germanic Thought. The Heathen way of seeing the issues of 'good' and 'bad' in the world have more to do with seeing the dance between opposing forces than actual 'good' or 'bad'. There is nothing inherently nor categorically good nor evil in the world. There is just the What-Is and within this, not merely the mechanics of Life, but Life's very fluid and constant motion.

I do think where many of us Heathens fail in trying to grasp the elemental thoughts as per our indigenous ways is in our inability to do away with the deeply-ingrained Christian themes and symbols and method of thought which most of us have been fed since we're young. It's a lot of baggage for many of us. Our challenge imo is to allow ourselves--permit ourselves--to study ourselves as Heathens As-We-Are as opposed to As-We-Are-In-Comparison-To-Another. I'm not saying that this does not present with its own hefty challenges for it does, living in the host society in which we do. But it is not in the realm of the impossible to do so.

As for our Lore, well yes there are difficulties with it let's say, Snorri's Edda more so than the Poetic Edda I would suggest. This in itself would be its own good thread to explore such issues of course. More on that later.

Just a few of my initial thoughts for now FS! Great thread topic!

Cheers FS and All!...Aemma

[Barreldriver]

This whole spiel will make our Ragnarok one interesting event, and if the spiel described in Lyfings articles is in fact the reality, then I await the day when I can ride into my final battle and punch the Christian God/Surt square in the nose, why? Because I can, and it is my obligation to do away with the rival. I'm not sure if I'll mess with Loki's army, they seem like a bunch that refuse to use condoms, don't want VD during my final fight lol j/k.

[SwordoftheVistula]

The parallels drawn in that first writ leads me to believe that perhaps Surt is the Christian god, his followers are his army

I still think the timing is off-at the time the Surtr legend arose, in the 900s or earlier, Christianity was associated with the remnants of Rome, and yet nothing in the Surtr legend resembles this, other than 'being from the south' which is more likely to do with him being associated with fire/hot and the underworld.

[Barreldriver]

I still think the timing is off-at the time the Surtr legend arose, in the 900s or earlier, Christianity was associated with the remnants of Rome, and yet nothing in the Surtr legend resembles this, other than 'being from the south' which is more likely to do with him being associated with fire/hot and the underworld.

I was making a conclusion in the context of the article Lyfing posted. Not a conclusion for an entire argument.