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Thread: Are Kazakhs indeed Turkified Mongols?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    Well, the point was that it's far from the most common Y-haplogroup in modern Mongolia. It's more Siberian and Turkic (Yakut for example), I guess.
    N* has origins in Southeast Asia. After NOP split. Turkic Tuvans for example have the highest % of P1, daddy of all Europeans, Indians and Native Americans.


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    Yes, the majority of them are turkified Mongols. According to the y-dna composition of Kazakhs, they carry the same set of y-dna haplogroups as Mongols (C2b*, C-M86, C-M401, C-M407, D1a etc.). In the image above, in case the names are not understood, they are Mongols, Kyrgyz, Afghan Tajiks/Uzbeks/Turkmens/Hazara/Pashtuns, Pakistani, Iranians and Kazakhs, respectively. The mongolic starcluster is C-M401 (and its father sucblace C-M504) and it is observed that it is present in 13% of Kyrgyz, 4% of Uzbeks, 1.4% of Turkmens, 33.3% of Hazara, 7% of Pakistani men and approximately 15% of Kazakhs.

    Even if other y-dna C had a different history at their beginning, like Oirat C-m86, forest Mongolic/Buryat C-m407, when they moved into Kazakhstan they were obviously already mongolic-speaking by then. Although the y-dna composition seems to be a conglomeration of different haplogroups, it is often clear-cut when we dive into specific Kazakh tribes. Therefore, Argyns are mainly y-dna G1 (G-L1323), Naimans are mainly y-dna O2, Qongirat are C-M407, Kipchaks are R-M73/Q-M25 (still hasn't been resolved which of the two), Shanyshkyly are C-F4002 (subclade of M401), Uysyns are also C-F4002, Tore are C-F1756, Alimuly are C-F992. Alshyn are C-M48 and so on. You can read more here in this Kazakhstani research by Sabitov and Jabagin. The turkic element comes from Kipchaks and some other tribes in Northeastern Kazakhstan who are y-dna Q. The mongolic element is more prevalent in the south and west of the country, where we find the Senior zhuz and the Junior Zhuz and tribes like Jalair and Uysyns with mongolic origin. Orta zhuz (Middle Zhuz) are mostly the earlier inhabitans of Kazakhstan (e.g. Argyns) or later allies of the Mongols (Naimans, Kipchaks).

    Regarding C-M407, it is a subclade of C-CTS2657, which is prevalent in Koreans. Mongolic tribes which have a high frequency of C-M407 (Qongirat, Buryat) usually have ethnonyms which are reminiscent of old Korean ones like Qoguryeo, Buyeo. So the coalescence of C-M407 must have happened at a very early stage inside a mongolic speaking environment. These tribes are also characteristic of being semi-farming and semi-nomadic, unlike full scale nomadic mongolic tribes. C-M86, a subclade of C-M48, is higher among Oirats in western Mongolia, Oirat-origin tribes in Kazakhstan and Kalmyks (30%, with only 10% C-M401), who are Oirat-speaking.

    An anecdote about this, regarding the Dzhunghar genocide, is that Mongols are angry against Manchu for that decision against an ally nation. But it is now known that the ruling class of Manchu, Aisin Gioro, is y-dna C-M401, coming from the Daur (descendants of para-mongolic Khitan people, also high in C-M401) and Dzhunghars (essentially Oirats) in western Mongolia/Xinjiang Uyghur are C-M86, the main Manchu y-dna haplogroup (taking into account the tungusic origins of Manchu). So it is maybe Mongols that should apologize to Manchu for that genocide.

    Finally, an excerpt from wikipedia states that:
    According to a large-scale Kazakhstani study published in 2017, Kazakh males belong to Y-DNA haplogroups C2-M217 (658/1294 = 50.85%, including 322/1294 = 24.88% C-M401, 225/1294 = 17.39% C-M86, 80/1294 = 6.18% C-M407, and 31/1294 = 2.40% C-M217(xM401, M48, M407)), R-M207 (157/1294 = 12.13%, including 78/1294 = 6.03% R1a-M198, 41/1294 = 3.17% R1b-M478, 21/1294 = 1.62% R1b-M269, 13/1294 = 1.00% R2-M124 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% R-M207(xM198, M478, M269, M124)), O-M175 (140/1294 = 10.82%, including 122/1294 = 9.43% O-M134, 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M122(xM134), and 9/1294 = 0.70% O-M175(xM122)), J-M304 (106/1294 = 8.19%, including 53/1294 = 4.10% J2a-M410 (predicted), 50/1294 = 3.86% J1-M267 (predicted), and 3/1294 = 0.23% J-M304(xJ1, J2a)), N-M231 (69/1294 = 5.33%, including 49/1294 = 3.79% N-M46, 16/1294 = 1.24% N-P43, and 4/1294 = 0.31% N-M231(xP43, M46)), G-M201 (64/1294 = 4.95%, including 44/1294 = 3.40% G1-M285, 18/1294 = 1.39% G2-P287, and 2/1294 = 0.15% G-M201(xM285, P287)), Q-M242 (41/1294 = 3.17%), E-M35 (23/1294 = 1.78%), I-M170 (20/1294 = 1.55%, including 11/1294 = 0.85% I2a-L460 (predicted), 5/1294 = 0.39% I1-M253 (predicted), and 4/1294 = 0.31% I2b-L415 (predicted)), D-M174 (6/1294 = 0.46%), L-M20 (4/1294 = 0.31% (predicted)), H (3/1294 = 0.23% (predicted)), T (2/1294 = 0.15% (predicted)), and K* (1/1294 = 0.08%).[54] However, the distribution was inhomogeneous for some Y-DNA haplogroups: Q-M242 was found predominantly among members of the Qangly tribe (27/40 = 67.50%), C-M407 was found predominantly among members of the Qongyrat tribe (64/95 = 67.37%), O-M134 was found predominantly among members of the Naiman tribe (102/155 = 65.81%), N-M46 was found predominantly among members of the Syrgeli tribe (21/32 = 65.63%), J1-M267 (predicted) was found predominantly among members of the Ysty tribe (36/57 = 63.16%), G1-M285 was found predominantly among members of the Argyn tribe (26/50 = 52.00%), R1b-M478 was found predominantly among members of the Qypshaq tribe (12/29 = 41.38%), and R1a-M198 was found with notable frequency among members of the Suan (13/41 = 31.71%) and Oshaqty (8/29 = 27.59%) tribes and among members of the Qoja caste of Islamic scholars and gentlemen (6/30 = 20.00%), although C-M401 was more common than R1a-M198 among members of the Suan and Oshaqty tribes (25/41 = 60.98% and 11/29 = 37.93%, respectively). Because of this lack of homogeneity among Kazakhs in regard to Y-chromosome DNA, the real percentage of present-day Kazakhs who belong to each Y-DNA haplogroup may differ from the percentages found in this study depending on the proportion of each tribe in the total population of Kazakhs.

    The linguistic turkification might have happened in one of the following three ways:
    1. The region of Kazakhstan had already been turkified by previous turkic-speaking ruling dynasties, like the Gokturk khaganate, so Mongols had to learn turkic to communicate with their subjects.
    2. The linguistic conversion happened in a military environment, before the onset of the expedition, voluntarily, or under a Kipchak leadership. It has to be taken into account that vast areas in Central Asia carry mongolic-specific (either Tungusic, or Korean etc.) haplogroups, so it is unlikely they would independently involve into turkic-speaking simultaenously after their seperation.
    3. According to a theory that suggests that Kazakhstan was turkified by a later wave from Kipchaks from Kyrgyzstan who are high in C-F1756, a haplogroup which has a slightly different history from C-M504.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shubotai View Post
    .
    Dude,you are one of the few sane and expert person in the Apricity.


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    Just a small correction: the modal haplogroup among Alimuly1 is C-M48 (75%), whereas the majority of C2b* in Central Asia is accounted by C-F1756 and to a lesser extent by the native C-F9992.

    1. The Connection of the Genetic, Cultural and Geographic Landscapes of Transoxiana, Maxat Zhabagin, Elena Balanovska, Zhaxylyk Sabitov.

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    LOL. And Tungus people who have the highest concentration of haplogroup C are Tungusized Mongols? Eh? Haplogroup C doesn't belong to Mongols. It is shared among populations along very wide belt from Northern America ( in Native American populations), among Chukchi-Kamchatka peoples ( reaches 60%), among Tungusic peoples ( may reach 80%).

    Haplogroup C is in equal percentages among Kazakhs and Mongols. What does it mean? If Mongols constitute only a part of Kazakhs then haplogroup C have to be smaller in Kazakhs but concentration of haplo C in Kazakhs is not smaller than in Mongols despite bigger population of Kazakhs. Because population of Kazakhs is bigger than Mongols there are more haplo C carriers among Kazakhs than among Mongols. Haplogroup C was major in tribes which now constitute Kazakhs BEFORE Genghis Khan period.

    Haplogroup C turns to the West in the point where Tungusic peoples are living.



    According to this map of haplogroup migrations Kazakhs are C3c1-M22, Tungusic peoples are C3c1-M22, Mongols are C3-M217. The arrow shows migration of Tungusic subclade C3c1-M22 through Mongolia towards Kazakhstan.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...aplogroups.png

    Last edited by mutabor; 01-07-2019 at 12:21 PM.

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    Mongolified turkified Indo-Europeans.

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    Let's listen to the language of Oroqen ( Evenki) Tugusic language who have the highest concentration of haplo C. It doesn't sound like Mongolian at all. There are elements in Oroqen language which are familiar with Turkic languages.


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    Language of Yukaghir people who live near Chukchi people ( region with haplogroups Q, C, N). Yukaghir language sounds just like Turkic language.




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    The most ancient texts of Turkic language ( Orkhon runes) are situated just in the middle of Mongolia. In Turkic text it is said that Turks were fighting with Chinese which means that original Turks were living in very close vicinity to Chinese people. Which correlates with Mongolian territory which is neighboring China.

    The Orkhon inscriptions, also known as Orhon Inscriptions, Orhun Inscriptions, Khöshöö Tsaidam monuments (Mongolian: Хөшөө цайдам, also spelled Khoshoo Tsaidam, Koshu-Tsaidam or Höshöö caidam), or Kul Tigin steles, are two memorial installations erected by the Göktürks written in Old Turkic alphabet in the early 8th century in the Orkhon Valley in Mongolia. They were erected in honor of two Turkic princes, Kul Tigin and his brother Bilge Khagan.

    The inscriptions, in both Chinese and Old Turkic, relate the legendary origins of the Turks, the golden age of their history, their subjugation by the Chinese, and their liberation by Ilterish Qaghan. In fact, according to one source, the inscriptions contain "rhythmic and parallelistic passages" that resemble that of epics.


    Location of Orkhon valley


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