Does Israel have the right to exist?

[Phenix]

Existence is not a right, it is not negotiable, so it's a never ending fight.

Personally Israel is a chimera that brought too many problems to an already explosive region, dismantling it would be of a huge progress.

Objectively though, if they can assure their own security (no western money for Bibi) let them have it, I am not a fan of the new Palestinian and Arab resistance anyway (a bunch of allahu-akbar yellers).

But here is the dilemma: Israel existence is untenable diplomatically and energetically, it has no determined borders and its demographics is poisonous, their only salvation is through annexation of neighboring territories and ethnic cleansing, if we take in account a future occidental isolationist policy in case of a regional war, Israel is doomed.

[Teutone]

Why give it back?

Violation of international laws and Syrian territorial integrity.

No country on planet earth recognizes Golan Heights as part of Israel.

[LawrenceMartinez]

No state have the right to exist

[Borealis]

what do you have to say about this:

I think that's pretty retarded. There is a thin stretch of fertile land along the eastern Meditteranean coast and Nile river delta but then everything to the east of that up till the Euphrates is essentially desert. Not the most well thought "promised land".

[FinalFlash]

I sympathize with Toppo

[Vicius Skanodar]

No state have the right to exist

Ancap gang

[The Lawspeaker]

Really. I don't care who rules them: the state of Israel or the Palestinian government. As long two certain groups of people are nowhere to be found all over Europe - taking their problems with them - I'll be quite content.

[Bellbeaking]

I have been accused of antisemitism on here as a result of the things I have said about western Jews. But I usually defend Israel. Maybe It shouldn't have been created, maybe it should've. There where Jews all over the Middle East and North Africa historically, and have often been persecuted to some extent, it seems reasonable that they have their own state somewhere in that region, in fact it seems like the best option as it separates people geographically who do not like one another.

Now that it already exists and people live there it should stay, most people are not native to their country or state and they have to be brought into existence somehow, and its usually by conquest which is clearly morally wrong, but so is uprooting innocent people. It is half a century on now, and people live there and an economy functions there. Leaving things as they are is surely the utilitarian option that results in the least amount of turmoil, neighboring Arab states should be encouraged to take in the Palestinians as refugees and Israel should pay some of the funds to integrate them.

Furthermore I tend to be on the side of competence, and Israel is a better country wrt productivity and innovation than any of the arab nations so I am inclined to support them over less productive and lower IQ neighbors.

[Longbowman]

Yes, all countries that exist have a right to exist.

I personally would not have advocated for its creation in the 1930s and 1940s, perhaps Kaliningrad could have become a place for the remnants of European Jewry had they so wished, but it's done now. Even if you wanted to dismantle it it would require an incredible amount of bloodshed considering the denizens are nearly to a man both opposed to its dismantlement, and armed.

Usual arguments:

1) Israel is doing bad things!
Many countries are doing equivalently bad things. I can't just oppose the existence of 70% of the world's countries.

2) Israel was founded on 'indigenous' soil!
Somewhat debatable but again so were many or even most countries. I don't want America to be given to the Iroquois or Mexico to the Maya either. Even if I thought that that constituted restorative justice, it would be a catastrophic policy for everyone involved. The sins of the father are not the sins of the son. See also: reparations.

3) Israel is an apartheid state!
Again I don't oppose the existence of apartheid states like Mauritania or Lebanon, I just oppose the apartheid.

4) Israel is undermining x and y!
No it isn't, but again, I don't oppose the existence of states that actually are, like China, Russia, the USA, and pretty much every country in the world ever.

[MS85]

Yes, but Israel should really stop sponsoring global terrorism and failed terrorist Sunni states like Turkey!