slovaks and slovenes - same people before avar/hungarian invasion ?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

do you think they were same ethnic group before that ?

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

some linguistic similarities: Slovenian ethnonym in own language (male/female - Slovenec,Slovenka) , in Slovak language (male/female - Slovak,Slovenka)

slovenian language is called slovenščina by native speakers, slovak language is called slovenčina.
how do slovaks call both countries ? slovensko for Slovakia, slovinsko for Slovenia. slovenians use slovenija for their own country, slovaška for Slovakia instead.

[Mingle]

some linguistic similarities: Slovenian ethnonym in own language (male/female - Slovenec,Slovenka) , in Slovak language (male/female - Slovak,Slovenka)

slovenian language is called slovenščina by native speakers, slovak language is called slovenčina.
how do slovaks call both countries ? slovensko for Slovakia, slovinsko for Slovenia. slovenians use slovenija for their own country, slovaška for Slovakia instead.

That is because they had a similar history in regards to their nation building process.

Lets look at what their ethnonym means. Slovenec/Slovak/etc. have the same original meaning, that is generic "Slav". Slovenec/Slovak/etc. have cognates that exist in all Slavic languages. In the case of non-Slovene/Slovak Slavic people, the meaning of the word is "Slavic" whereas it takes on the meaning of their specific ethnicity (Slovene/Slovak) in the case of Slovaks and Slovenes.

Slovenec/Slovak/etc. are not the names of Slavic tribes, but are just the word for generic Slav that they have adopted in their language.

So the question becomes "Why are Slovenes and Slovaks the only Slavic people that identify as generic Slavs instead of identifying with a specific Slavic tribe?" The answer to that is some similar history which I'll explain.

Slovenes descend from the Slavic Carantanian tribe mainly and their first kingdom was called Carantania (Karantanija). They were likely a group of multiple different Slavic tribes with the Carantans being the most numerous tribe among them. Carantania was founded in 658 and became a Frankish tributary state in 745 (as a way to gain protection against Avars) before being fully integrated into Francia in 828. Once getting annexed by the Franks, the eastern Bavarians (Austrians) got their own kingdom and inherited Carantania/Slovenia. As stated before, the main tribe of Carantania was likely the Carantan, but other Slavic tribes coexisted. Since they were multiple different tribes and the Carantanian ethnogenesis has not been complete, the Pan-Slavic identity still persisted. This sort of identification was more common since the Slavic people of Austria needed to look for an identity that bound them together as opposed to looking for an identity that distinguished them from other Slavs.

Now, regarding Slovaks. The earliest state there was Samo's Empire but it's not known what Slavic tribe, if any, they identified with. Afterwards, the states of Samo's Empire and Great Morava appeared in modern day Slovakia. The Moravians did conquer much of Slovakia & Czechia (in addition to some neighboring territories), but the Moravians that conquered modern day Slovakia were likely originally from eastern Czechia (i.e. modern day Moravia) and possibly a small part of western Slovakia. Where they exactly lived is hard to say, but most people from modern day Slovakia likely did not identify as Moravian back then. Since a tribe is a political unit, we can also assume that the Slavic ancestors of the Slovaks may have never identified with a tribe or they belonged to several different extinct tribes of which we don't know the name of. We basically no that were some no-name Nitra Slavs in Slovakia and possibly some Moravians in the western corner. Shortly afterwards, Slovakia was conquered by the Hungarians and Czechia became part of the Holy Roman Empire. Due to being ruled by Hungarians, the Slavs of Hungary searched for a word that bound them together so they identified as generic Slavs instead of with their individual Slavic tribes (whatever they may have been).

So basically, to cut things short. The people of Slovenia and Slovakia both identify as generic Slavs which is why their name sounds similar. Their ethnonym simply means generic "Slav" instead of a specific Slavic tribe. The reason they identify as generic Slavs is because they did not have independence but were ruled by foreigners for basically their entire history lasting around a thousand years. Slovenia and Slovakia got conquered by Austria and Hungary in the Middle Ages and gained independence in the 20th century. What happened to Slovenes and Slovaks is somewhat similar to what happened to Finns. Before Swedish annexation, Finland was a bunch of disunited tribes without a common identity. Finland similar was ruled by Sweden for a long time (600 years) and then ruled by Russia before gaining independence in the modern era for the first time ever.

So the answer is that they were only the same in ethnicity in the past in the same sense that all Slavs were the same ethnicity in the past. Their similar names are because of a common history of being subjugated Slavs being ruled by foreigners for an extended period of time. They don't even speak the same branch of Slavic. Slovenes speak South Slavic whereas Slovaks speak West Slavic.

There are also other places where the land is named after generic Slavs (Slovincia in Poland and Slavonia in Croatia).

[ShenGjergj]

Make Slovenia, Croatia again!

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

That is because they had a similar history in regards to their nation building process.

Lets look at what their ethnonym means. Slovenec/Slovak/etc. have the same original meaning, that is generic "Slav". Slovenec/Slovak/etc. have cognates that exist in all Slavic languages. In the case of non-Slovene/Slovak Slavic people, the meaning of the word is "Slavic" whereas it takes on the meaning of their specific ethnicity (Slovene/Slovak) in the case of Slovaks and Slovenes.

Slovenec/Slovak/etc. are not the names of Slavic tribes, but are just the word for generic Slav that they have adopted in their language.

So the question becomes "Why are Slovenes and Slovaks the only Slavic people that identify as generic Slavs instead of identifying with a specific Slavic tribe?" The answer to that is some similar history which I'll explain.

Slovenes descend from the Slavic Carantanian tribe mainly and their first kingdom was called Carantania (Karantanija). They were likely a group of multiple different Slavic tribes with the Carantans being the most numerous tribe among them. Carantania was founded in 658 and became a Frankish tributary state in 745 (as a way to gain protection against Avars) before being fully integrated into Francia in 828. Once getting annexed by the Franks, the eastern Bavarians (Austrians) got their own kingdom and inherited Carantania/Slovenia. As stated before, the main tribe of Carantania was likely the Carantan, but other Slavic tribes coexisted. Since they were multiple different tribes and the Carantanian ethnogenesis has not been complete, the Pan-Slavic identity still persisted. This sort of identification was more common since the Slavic people of Austria needed to look for an identity that bound them together as opposed to looking for an identity that distinguished them from other Slavs.

Now, regarding Slovaks. The earliest state there was Samo's Empire but it's not known what Slavic tribe, if any, they identified with. Afterwards, the states of Samo's Empire and Great Morava appeared in modern day Slovakia. The Moravians did conquer much of Slovakia & Czechia (in addition to some neighboring territories), but the Moravians that conquered modern day Slovakia were likely originally from eastern Czechia (i.e. modern day Moravia) and possibly a small part of western Slovakia. Where they exactly lived is hard to say, but most people from modern day Slovakia likely did not identify as Moravian back then. Since a tribe is a political unit, we can also assume that the Slavic ancestors of the Slovaks may have never identified with a tribe or they belonged to several different extinct tribes of which we don't know the name of. We basically no that were some no-name Nitra Slavs in Slovakia and possibly some Moravians in the western corner. Shortly afterwards, Slovakia was conquered by the Hungarians and Czechia became part of the Holy Roman Empire. Due to being ruled by Hungarians, the Slavs of Hungary searched for a word that bound them together so they identified as generic Slavs instead of with their individual Slavic tribes (whatever they may have been).

So basically, to cut things short. The people of Slovenia and Slovakia both identify as generic Slavs which is why their name sounds similar. Their ethnonym simply means generic "Slav" instead of a specific Slavic tribe. The reason they identify as generic Slavs is because they did not have independence but were ruled by foreigners for basically their entire history lasting around a thousand years. Slovenia and Slovakia got conquered by Austria and Hungary in the Middle Ages and gained independence in the 20th century. What happened to Slovenes and Slovaks is somewhat similar to what happened to Finns. Before Swedish annexation, Finland was a bunch of disunited tribes without a common identity. Finland similar was ruled by Sweden for a long time (600 years) and then ruled by Russia before gaining independence in the modern era for the first time ever.

So the answer is that they were only the same in ethnicity in the past in the same sense that all Slavs were the same ethnicity in the past. Their similar names are because of a common history of being subjugated Slavs being ruled by foreigners for an extended period of time. They don't even speak the same branch of Slavic. Slovenes speak South Slavic whereas Slovaks speak West Slavic.

There are also other places where the land is named after generic Slavs (Slovincia in Poland and Slavonia in Croatia).

wonder how related were slavic tribes that formed both nations. not in context of proto slavs but later than that

[Bogdan]

Similar and eventually from similar roots, but not the same.

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

random slovak vs slovene gedmatch comparison (thanks to Leto)

Slovak

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 38.74
2 North_Atlantic 27.87
3 West_Med 13.95
4 West_Asian 8.42
5 East_Med 6.67
6 Red_Sea 1.68
7 Siberian 0.93
8 Amerindian 0.56
9 Oceanian 0.5
10 Sub-Saharan 0.41
11 Northeast_African 0.28

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 3.64
2 Ukrainian_Lviv 3.95
3 South_Polish 5.18
4 Ukrainian 5.5
5 Moldavian 6.66
6 Polish 8.08
7 Hungarian 8.18
8 Southwest_Russian 9.56
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.73
10 East_German 10.41
11 Russian_Smolensk 10.45
12 Estonian_Polish 11.23
13 Austrian 11.5
14 Belorussian 11.94
15 Serbian 12.9
16 Kargopol_Russian 13.51
17 Southwest_Finnish 14.61
18 Estonian 15.36
19 Erzya 15.77
20 Lithuanian 15.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.5% Croatian + 47.5% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.7
2 89% Ukrainian_Lviv + 11% North_Italian @ 1.78
3 55.1% Moldavian + 44.9% Polish @ 1.81
4 90% Ukrainian_Lviv + 10% Tuscan @ 1.89
5 78.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 21.2% Serbian @ 1.94
6 71.8% Croatian + 28.2% Polish @ 1.95
7 83% Ukrainian_Lviv + 17% Romanian @ 2.02
8 90.6% Ukrainian_Lviv + 9.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.03
9 90.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 9.1% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.05
10 77.4% Croatian + 22.6% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.08
11 90.2% Ukrainian_Lviv + 9.8% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.09
12 83.6% Croatian + 16.4% Estonian @ 2.1
13 63.1% Croatian + 36.9% Ukrainian @ 2.1
14 84.2% Croatian + 15.8% Lithuanian @ 2.11
15 91.3% Ukrainian_Lviv + 8.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.13
16 65.6% Ukrainian_Lviv + 34.4% Moldavian @ 2.15
17 89.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 10.2% Portuguese @ 2.17
18 90.7% Ukrainian_Lviv + 9.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.18
19 85% Ukrainian_Lviv + 15% Bulgarian @ 2.18
20 57.3% South_Polish + 42.7% Moldavian @ 2.1

Slovene

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.77
2 North_Atlantic 27.17
3 West_Med 13.06
4 East_Med 10.57
5 West_Asian 7.99
6 South_Asian 1.7
7 Amerindian 1.58
8 Red_Sea 1.1
9 Oceanian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 2.23
2 Moldavian 4.82
3 Hungarian 6.59
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 6.81
5 South_Polish 7.39
6 Ukrainian 7.89
7 Serbian 10.19
8 East_German 10.64
9 Polish 10.67
10 Austrian 11.09
11 Southwest_Russian 11.26
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.53
13 Russian_Smolensk 12.77
14 Estonian_Polish 13.33
15 Romanian 13.79
16 Belorussian 13.92
17 Kargopol_Russian 15.74
18 Bulgarian 15.83
19 Southwest_Finnish 16.69
20 Erzya 17.68

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.9% Polish + 40.1% Bulgarian @ 1.67
2 69.9% Polish + 30.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 1.67
3 56.5% Polish + 43.5% Romanian @ 1.78
4 77.3% Polish + 22.7% South_Italian @ 1.8
5 75% Polish + 25% Central_Greek @ 1.82
6 57.1% Romanian + 42.9% Lithuanian @ 1.87
7 69.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 30.1% North_Italian @ 2
8 97.9% Croatian + 2.1% MA-1 @ 2.03
9 52% Russian_Smolensk + 48% Romanian @ 2.04
10 92.6% Croatian + 7.4% Southwest_Russian @ 2.05
11 92.8% Croatian + 7.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.05
12 99.4% Croatian + 0.6% Karitiana @ 2.09
13 99.3% Croatian + 0.7% Pima @ 2.1
14 94.9% Croatian + 5.1% Belorussian @ 2.11
15 99.4% Croatian + 0.6% Mayan @ 2.12
16 95.1% Croatian + 4.9% Estonian_Polish @ 2.13
17 95.1% Croatian + 4.9% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.13
18 75.8% Polish + 24.2% East_Sicilian @ 2.13
19 99.3% Croatian + 0.7% North_Amerindian @ 2.14
20 64.2% Ukrainian + 35.8% Romanian @ 2.14

[Ülev]

no, they were ancient Poles, like it or not, example:
Slovaks: https://translate.google.com/#view=h...xt=z%C3%A1chod
Poles: https://translate.google.com/#view=h...xt=zach%C3%B3d
Slovenes: https://translate.google.com/#view=h...=en&text=zahod


but then R1a M458 came to Poland from Kyiv area - same Polanie tribe as in Greater Poland (like nowadays 2 millions Ukrainians in Poland)
Slovenes mainly R1a M558, Poles half m458 half 558


edit: Slovaks also half to half with R1a clades, but took Kyiv Polyanie language

[Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić]

didn't bother to run all slovak kits but they're pretty similar to slovenians. some are close to poles and ukrainians though and that's not strange since they're neighbours
they're split between those that are close to croats and hungarians (means to slovenians also) and those closer to other north slavs.

Slovenians look more German influenced and Slovaks more purely Slavic but difference isn't huge like some would think because they're south and north slavs respectively

[Ülev]

https://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gozd
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gozdnica

Gozd - forest, Gozdnica - small town in the middle of forest

Gozd - names in use only in Slovenia and Poland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gozd

lol