Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: Balts and Slavs, what's the difference?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    Diyar-ı Rum
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Ar-Rum, Ottoman, Byzantine
    Ethnicity
    Bosniak
    Ancestry
    25% N.Macedonian, 25% Albanian + 50% Dalmatia Slavic mixed Vlach
    Country
    Bosnia
    Region
    Dalmatia
    Y-DNA
    I2
    mtDNA
    H28
    Taxonomy
    Dinarid + Pontid
    Politics
    Neo-Ottomanism
    Hero
    Tzepeles Komnenos, Mehmed II
    Religion
    Ottoman Islam
    Gender
    Posts
    17,720
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 8,216
    Given: 5,754

    1 Not allowed!

    Default Balts and Slavs, what's the difference?

    Is there any difference between Balts and Slavs besides langauge?

    Both Slavs and Balts have huge Baltic presence (through phenotype and genetic admixture)

    I believe that Balts and Slavs existed before as a single entity like Balto-Slavs or like Greco-Romans

    Do we have any insight into this?

  2. #2
    乁 了 ' ' ◠ Lemgrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Online
    05-11-2023 @ 12:07 PM
    Location
    Ελληνική Μακεδονία
    Ethnicity
    Ukrainian
    Ancestry
    Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Greek, Jewish, Finnish, Germanic, East Asian
    Country
    Greece
    Y-DNA
    R-Y2910
    mtDNA
    U4b
    Hero
    Lao Tzu, Epicurus, Copernicus, Hippocrates, Giordano Bruno, Maria Skłodowska, Nikola Tesla
    Religion
    Epicureanism
    Gender
    Posts
    2,865
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,549
    Given: 1,670

    0 Not allowed!

  3. #3
    乁 了 ' ' ◠ Lemgrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Online
    05-11-2023 @ 12:07 PM
    Location
    Ελληνική Μακεδονία
    Ethnicity
    Ukrainian
    Ancestry
    Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Greek, Jewish, Finnish, Germanic, East Asian
    Country
    Greece
    Y-DNA
    R-Y2910
    mtDNA
    U4b
    Hero
    Lao Tzu, Epicurus, Copernicus, Hippocrates, Giordano Bruno, Maria Skłodowska, Nikola Tesla
    Religion
    Epicureanism
    Gender
    Posts
    2,865
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,549
    Given: 1,670

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    Read the full research article here: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0135820
    Abstract
    The Slavic branch of the Balto-Slavic sub-family of Indo-European languages underwent rapid divergence as a result of the spatial expansion of its speakers from Central-East Europe, in early medieval times. This expansion–mainly to East Europe and the northern Balkans–resulted in the incorporation of genetic components from numerous autochthonous populations into the Slavic gene pools. Here, we characterize genetic variation in all extant ethnic groups speaking Balto-Slavic languages by analyzing mitochondrial DNA (n = 6,876), Y-chromosomes (n = 6,079) and genome-wide SNP profiles (n = 296), within the context of other European populations. We also reassess the phylogeny of Slavic languages within the Balto-Slavic branch of Indo-European. We find that genetic distances among Balto-Slavic populations, based on autosomal and Y-chromosomal loci, show a high correlation (0.9) both with each other and with geography, but a slightly lower correlation (0.7) with mitochondrial DNA and linguistic affiliation. The data suggest that genetic diversity of the present-day Slavs was predominantly shaped in situ, and we detect two different substrata: ‘central-east European’ for West and East Slavs, and ‘south-east European’ for South Slavs. A pattern of distribution of segments identical by descent between groups of East-West and South Slavs suggests shared ancestry or a modest gene flow between those two groups, which might derive from the historic spread of Slavic people.

    Results
    Genetic structuring of Balto-Slavic populations

    The genetic structuring of Balto-Slavic populations (Fig 1) in a European context is shown in three plots, representing autosomal PC1vsPC3, NRY and mtDNA MDS analyses, respectively (Fig 2A, 2B and 2C). In the autosomal-and NRY-based plots, most Balto-Slavic populations are dispersed along the north-south axis of their geographic origin (Fig 2A and 2B). In their Y-chromosomal and autosomal variation, East Slavs–Russians from central-southern regions, Belarusians and Ukrainians– form a cluster on their own, though these populations do not overlap entirely with each other (Fig 2A and 2B). This group is characterized by low mean values of population pairwise genetic distances (DNei = 0.125 for NRY; FST = 0.0008 for autosomal data) (Tables A,B in S1 File). In contrast, Russians from the northern region of the European part of Russia are differentiated from the rest of the East Slavs, and on genetic plots lie in the vicinity of their Finnic-speaking geographic neighbors. Accordingly, the average genetic distances between North Russians and the rest of East Slavic populations are high: DNei = 0.584; FST = 0.0081) (Tables A,B in S1 File). Compared to the East Slavs, the West Slavs are more differentiated. In particular, Czechs (Fig 2A and 2B) and to a lesser extent also Slovaks (Fig 2A), are shifted towards Germans and other West Europeans, whereas Poles either overlap or lie close to East Slavs. Likewise, population pairwise genetic distances are as twice as high for West Slavs as for East Slavs (DNei = 0.241 for NRY; FST = 0.0014) (Tables A,B in S1 File). Notably, genetic distances remain low after adding Poles to the Belarusians, Ukrainians and Russians from the central-southern regions (DNei = 0.144 for NRY; FST = 0.0006 for autosomal data), indicating thereby an extended geographic area with low genetic differentiation among the majority of Slavic speakers across Central-East Europe.

    Most South Slavs are separated from the rest of the Balto-Slavic populations and form a sparse group of populations with internal differentiation into western (Slovenians, Croatians and Bosnians) and eastern (Macedonians and Bulgarians) regions of the Balkan Peninsula with Serbians placed in-between (Fig 2A and 2B). The mean population pairwise genetic distances for South Slavs (DNei = 0.239 for NRY; FST = 0.0009 for autosomal data) (Tables A,B in S1 File) are comparable or higher to the ones for East Slavs despite the smaller region within the Balkan Peninsula that they occupy. Furthermore, Slovenians lie close to the non-Slavic-speaking Hungarians, whereas eastern South Slavs group is located together with non-Slavic-speaking but geographically neighboring Romanians and, to some extent, with Greeks.

    Both extant Baltic-speaking populations, Latvians and Lithuanians, lie in the vicinity of Finno-Ugric-speaking Estonians according to their Y-chromosome diversity (Fig 2B), whilst in their autosomal variation they are slightly shifted towards the group of East Slavic speakers (Fig 2A). Also, one finds Volga-Finnic Mordvins close to the two Baltic-speaking populations (Fig 2A), potentially reflecting historic evidence that the Baltic-speaking tribes’ spread zone formerly reached more eastward parts of the East European Plain [49,50].

    The patterns of genetic structure of the Balto-Slavic populations agree particularly between autosomal and NRY data. However, the maternal gene pool of the Balto-Slavic populations, although less structured possibly due to somewhat lower phylogenetic resolution of the dataset (Fig 2C, Tables C, D in S1 File), bears some features similar to those of autosomal and NRY ones such as the differentiation of North Russians and the overlap between East Slavs (Fig 2A, 2B and 2C). In contrast to mtDNA and even to autosomes, the NRY variation often reveals its fine structuring within the Balto-Slavic patrilineal gene pool (Fig 2B, see also Table E in S1 File).

    Ancestral components of the Balto-Slavic gene pool
    Using the clustering algorithm implemented in ADMIXTURE [51], we modeled ancestral genetic components in Balto-Slavic populations. Assuming six ancestral populations (K = 6) (see S1 Text: Methods for choosing a best K), Balto-Slavic speakers bear membership almost exclusively from two ancestral components: the dark blue (k3) and the light blue (k2), albeit in different proportions (Fig 3). k3 is omnipresent throughout European populations and decreases from north-eastern Europeans southwards. Thus, k3 peaks in Baltic speakers and prevails in East Slavs (80–95%) and decreases notably in South Slavs (55–70%). In contrast, k2 is abundant around the Mediterranean and in the Caucasus region and decreases among Europeans when moving northward. Accordingly, it makes up nearly 30% of ancestral proportions in South Slavs, decreases to around 20% in West and East Slavs and drops to around 5% in North Russians and Baltic speakers (Fig 3). The further division of the two major components (k3 and k2) in the Balto-Slavic populations at higher values of K indicates more complex structuring of genomes of South Slavs as compared to West and East Slavs (S2 Fig).

    As far as minor ancestral components are concerned, only West and East Slavs, and, predominantly North Russians, bear the ‘Siberian/Volga-region’ component (k5, lemon yellow) (Fig 3). It is noteworthy that the k6 component, predominant among Han Chinese and abundant in Mongols and Altaians, is virtually absent in Russians, suggesting that the “East Eurasian” share in North and Central Russian ancestry is due to admixture with North-Central Siberians, rather than with South Siberia/Mongols (Fig 3, S2 Fig).

    Distribution of segments identical by descent among Balto-Slavic speakers and surrounding populations
    To analyze further the patterns of gene flow among the Balto-Slavic populations and their non-Slavic neighbors as well as to explore the genetic heritage of the suggested Slavic migration from Central-East to the Balkan region of Europe, we focused on the pairwise sharing of IBD segments [39,52] and applied the fIBD algorithm [53]. We created two groups of Slavs–East-West Slavs (1) and South Slavs (2)–and seven additional groups of populations representing the geographic context for present-day Slavs (S3 Fig; Table F in S1 File). As a measure of IBD sharing, we used an average number of IBD segments per pair of individuals (which we refer to as ibd-statistic). We calculated the ibd-statistic for the two groups of Slavic speakers, and compared it to the ibd-statistic for each of the groups of Slavs and their respective non-Slavic neighboring groups of populations (S3 Fig and Table F in S1 File, S1 Text: Methods for detailed description of the analysis).

    IBD analysis (Fig 4A, Table G in S1 File) reveals three patterns of IBD sharing relevant to the group of East-West Slavs in a European context. Firstly, the ibd-statistics for East-West Slavs and South Slavs (within-Slavic IBD sharing) are significantly higher than those for East-West Slavs and populations of the Volga region, West Europeans and North Caucasians (p<<0.01) (Fig 4A, Table G in S1 File). Secondly, however, this level of within-Slavic IBD sharing is lower than among East-West Slavs and populations from north-east Europe (i.e. Baltic speakers/Estonians; Karelians/Vepsa/Russians North): East-West Slavs share twice as many IBD segments with north-east Europeans as with South Slavs (p<<0.01) (Table G in S1 File). Note that exclusion of the North Russian population from the group of north-east Europeans did not lead to a significant drop in the IBD sharing between East-West Slavs and north-east Europeans (S4 Fig). Finally, the ibd-statistics for East-West Slavs and South Slavs do not differ (p = 0.08–0.8) from that of East-West Slavs and the ‘inter-Slavic’ group of populations, i.e. Hungarians, Romanians and Gagauz (Table G in S1 File, Fig 4A).

    South Slavs in their turn share a similar number of IBD segments with East-West Slavs and with the ‘inter-Slavic’ Romanian, Hungarian and Gagauz populations (Fig 4B; Table G in S1 File). Notably, South Slavs share significantly fewer IBD segments for length classes 1.5–3 cM with their immediate geographic neighbors in south–Greeks–than with the group of East-West Slavs (Fig 4B).

    Altogether, the analysis of IBD segment distributions revealed even patterns of IBD sharing among East-West Slavs–‘inter-Slavic’ populations (Hungarians, Romanians and Gagauz)–and South Slavs, i.e. across an area of assumed historic movements of people including Slavs.
    ...

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Not a Cop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Last Online
    Yesterday @ 11:27 PM
    Location
    Saint-Petersburg
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Russian
    Ancestry
    NE Europe+Crusader
    Country
    Russia
    Y-DNA
    R1b1b2a1a
    mtDNA
    U5b1e
    Taxonomy
    Dalo-Faelid\Sub-Nordid
    Politics
    Phenotype positivity
    Age
    25
    Gender
    Posts
    7,588
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 8,093
    Given: 10,127

    1 Not allowed!

    Default

    So far it looks like Slavs are Balts+some s. Euro admixture.

  5. #5
    乁 了 ' ' ◠ Lemgrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Online
    05-11-2023 @ 12:07 PM
    Location
    Ελληνική Μακεδονία
    Ethnicity
    Ukrainian
    Ancestry
    Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Greek, Jewish, Finnish, Germanic, East Asian
    Country
    Greece
    Y-DNA
    R-Y2910
    mtDNA
    U4b
    Hero
    Lao Tzu, Epicurus, Copernicus, Hippocrates, Giordano Bruno, Maria Skłodowska, Nikola Tesla
    Religion
    Epicureanism
    Gender
    Posts
    2,865
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,549
    Given: 1,670

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Of the Western Slavs, the Czechs and to a lesser extent the Slovaks are different from the Eastern Slavs and are biased towards the Germans and other Western European populations genetically. But the Poles are closest to the Eastern Slavs. In fact, on the charts Poles, Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians form a common cluster, and the Slovaks and especially the Czechs are somewhat removed from it.
    A.

  6. #6
    Hatchling
    Apricity Funding Member
    "Friend of Apricity"

    Mingle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Last Online
    @
    Location
    America
    Meta-Ethnicity
    Central European
    Ethnicity
    Pashtun
    Country
    United States
    Region
    Aboriginal
    Y-DNA
    R1a>Z93>FT296004
    mtDNA
    U2c1
    Gender
    Posts
    10,502
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 6,880
    Given: 7,415

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemgrant View Post
    Of the Western Slavs, the Czechs and to a lesser extent the Slovaks are different from the Eastern Slavs and are biased towards the Germans and other Western European populations genetically. But the Poles are closest to the Eastern Slavs. In fact, on the charts Poles, Russians, Belarusians and Ukrainians form a common cluster, and the Slovaks and especially the Czechs are somewhat removed from it.
    What about Silesians?

  7. #7
    乁 了 ' ' ◠ Lemgrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2018
    Last Online
    05-11-2023 @ 12:07 PM
    Location
    Ελληνική Μακεδονία
    Ethnicity
    Ukrainian
    Ancestry
    Ukraine, Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Greek, Jewish, Finnish, Germanic, East Asian
    Country
    Greece
    Y-DNA
    R-Y2910
    mtDNA
    U4b
    Hero
    Lao Tzu, Epicurus, Copernicus, Hippocrates, Giordano Bruno, Maria Skłodowska, Nikola Tesla
    Religion
    Epicureanism
    Gender
    Posts
    2,865
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,549
    Given: 1,670

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mingle View Post
    What about Silesians?
    They are not mentioned in the research as a separate group

  8. #8
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Last Online
    02-08-2019 @ 07:54 PM
    Location
    Bucharest
    Meta-Ethnicity
    troo Europian
    Ethnicity
    Latinized dark haired NE European
    Ancestry
    75% North Romania,25% South Romania
    Country
    Romania
    Region
    Sami People
    Y-DNA
    not tested yet
    mtDNA
    not tested yet
    Taxonomy
    untermenschen with ubermenschen vibe
    Politics
    Romania uber alles
    Hero
    NoHeroesForMe
    Religion
    christian orthodox
    Relationship Status
    Single
    Age
    40
    Gender
    Posts
    7,664
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 711
    Given: 1,731

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    I have looked at that genetic study, but is done with few differentiated admixtures.
    How it looks in my eyes is that Balto-Slavic people are more shifted towards Scandos as genetics, that even Poles or Czechs.
    Now, I know there are different genetic studies.

  9. #9
    Iskusan član Vlatko Vukovic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Last Online
    09-25-2023 @ 12:00 AM
    Ethnicity
    Bosniak
    Country
    Bosnia
    Y-DNA
    I2a-Din
    Taxonomy
    North Atlantid
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Posts
    7,246
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,898
    Given: 2,620

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Not a Cop View Post
    So far it looks like Slavs are Balts+some s. Euro admixture.
    Balts in what sense?

  10. #10
    Iskusan član Vlatko Vukovic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Last Online
    09-25-2023 @ 12:00 AM
    Ethnicity
    Bosniak
    Country
    Bosnia
    Y-DNA
    I2a-Din
    Taxonomy
    North Atlantid
    Age
    23
    Gender
    Posts
    7,246
    Thumbs Up
    Received: 2,898
    Given: 2,620

    0 Not allowed!

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosniensis View Post
    Is there any difference between Balts and Slavs besides langauge?

    Both Slavs and Balts have huge Baltic presence (through phenotype and genetic admixture)

    I believe that Balts and Slavs existed before as a single entity like Balto-Slavs or like Greco-Romans

    Do we have any insight into this?
    This connection is usually explained due to linguistical connection between Slavic and Baltic languages. What is known about that is that Balts and Slavs in far antiquity most probably constituted one common continuum, of North-West satem IE group. Proto-Balto-Slavic is reconstructed language which most likely splitted into three directions: West Baltic (will later be Prussian and some other extinct variations), East Baltic (will later be Lithuanian and Latvian and other extinct variations) and Slavic is third branch.

    If that is correct, it means that "Proto-Baltic" wasn't spoken anytime in history, because it would be literally Proto-Satem-Indo-European, and the term "proto-Balto-Slavic" represents the speech about 2500 BC where happened characteristical innovations which are common for both, modern Slavic and modern Baltic languages.

    Difference is that Baltic languages are more "archaic" on the field of phonology and morphology (for example, Slavic "vuk" can be derived from the word "vilkas" which is even today presented in Lithuanian), similar with other words(sunnus-sin, karva-krava, galva-glava) etc... On the other side, there are things where Slavic is more archaic than Baltic, it is primarly verbal system. For example, in Slavic survived differences between 3rd. singular and plural, while in Baltic languages it is the same (In english "He watchs, they watch" in Baltic "He watch, they watch", and this is innovation of Baltic languages which Slavic preserved more archaic. Also, present aorist is more archaic in Slavic.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Compare Western Slavs and Balts.
    By Sandman in forum Taxonomy
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 12-14-2021, 06:14 PM
  2. Of Slavs, Balts, and Germans
    By Robocop in forum Genetics
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 01-06-2019, 09:15 AM
  3. Were the Veneti actually Pre-Slavs/Balts?
    By Dibran in forum History & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-20-2018, 06:34 PM
  4. Do Balts and Slavs mostly tan better than Westerners?
    By cyberlorian in forum Off-topic
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 06-23-2018, 11:48 PM
  5. who is closer: Celts and Germanics or Slavs and Balts?
    By Niegosław Paprocki in forum History & Ethnogenesis
    Replies: 79
    Last Post: 10-09-2017, 12:27 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •