When Camels Roamed North America

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Well their camelid relatives in the Andes should be mentioned to be further convincing.

In the UAE they actually managed to breed a handful of Camel and Llama hybrids. The hybrids look like what the protocamel/Llama ancestor must have looked like being an intermediate before divergence.

I personally love the disposition of camels they are great animals, I love feeding them, looking at them and petting them.

[Kamal900]

In the UAE they actually managed to breed a handful of Camel and Llama hybrids. The hybrids look like what the protocamel/Llama ancestor must have looked like being an intermediate before divergence.

I personally love the disposition of camels they are great animals, I love feeding them, looking at them and petting them.

Yup. It's called the Cama, and they're freakin cool!

[SardiniaAtlantis]

Yup. It's called the Cama, and they're freakin cool!

Yes they are! I’d love to see one in real life! They get taller than that when full grown.

[Borealis]

Some Arab countries (mainly those in the Arab Peninsula) already successfully reintroduced the red-necked ostrich and oryx. Israel failed to reintroduce red-necked ostriches twice. The first time, they ran off and got lost (possibly wandering off into Egypt). The second time they got killed. I see your point anyhow, but just thought it'd be relevant to mention this. You may say that those were simple oryxes and ostriches, and that apex predators are totally different. And I'd agree with you, but keep in mind that large portions of the country are sparsely populated wasteland and leopards still exist in pockets over there.

I hadn't been aware that those ostriches were introduced to Arabia, I'd imagine it wouldn't have been too hard in the first place because there aren't any real differences in ecology between the Sahara and Arabia. Anyway, while looking this up I stumbled upon another fascinating story, which is that ostriches apparently may have existed in India up till the late pleistocene. That makes perfect sense because they did live all the way up till Iraq in recent times. Clearly desert is not a problem and they could have traveled the southern coast of Iran/Pakistan before reaching India. If this is true then it may have been another confirmed unfortunate casualty of the human expansion during the Pleistocene.

I couldn't find a source for this part specifically (the reason why I didn't reply immediately), but there's other info I have in regards to the topic.

Zoos are exchanging cheetahs among themselves in order to boost the genetic diversity among the species:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/05/s...d-species.html

http://mailtribune.com/news/since-yo...s-for-breeding

Here's a zoo aware of the problem with genetic diversity and they're breeding cheetahs specifically to overcome it:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0812153221.htm

Anyways, this probably matches the info that you are looking for (though its not from Toronto):

Bingwa is on loan to the Saint Louis Zoo from Wildlife Safari in Winston, Oregon. The cub’s nine-year-old father, Jason, is on loan from White Oak Conservation in Yulee, Florida. The birth of these eight cubs is a result of a breeding recommendation from the AZA Cheetah Species Survival Plan (SSP), a program to manage a genetically healthy population of cheetahs in North American zoos.

Since 1974, the Zoo has been a leader in Cheetah reproductive research and breeding. Over 50 cubs have been born at the Saint Louis Zoo’s Cheetah Breeding Center.

https://www.zooborns.com/zooborns/20...louis-zoo.html

So the problem is known and zoos are actively combating it which is why wild cheetahs are significantly more inbred than captive cheetahs.

BTW, here is an interesting book I found on cheetah genetics that I started. It's only a preview, but I'm linking it in case you're interested.

What are the chances of these cheetahs being reintroduced into the wild? I hope this doesn't turn into a narrow attempt to improve the health of captive individuals alone. I do hope that they can somehow help wild cheetahs too.

There were some Hexaprotodon sivalensis fossils found India that are said to be from the Late Pleistocene.

Hippopotamids first disperse into Eurasia from Africa during the Upper Miocene and are represented by a single genus, Hexaprotodon Falconer and Cautley, 1836 (Geraads, 2010;Patnaik, 2013). Hexaprotodon diversifies in South and Southeast Asia during the Late Neogene and Quaternary (Deraniyagala, 1944;Hooijer, 1950;van den Bergh et al., 2001;Louys et al., 2007;Chauhan, 2008;Patnaik, 2013).While widespread during the Early-Middle Pleistocene, Hexaprotodon is found only in South Asia during the Late Pleistocene (Dennell, 2005;van den Bergh et al., 2001;Louys et al., 2007;Chauhan, 2008;Patnaik,2013). Here, we present the youngest directly dated specimen of Hexaprotodon from the Narmada Valley in Central India and discuss pos-sible causes for its extinction in South Asia.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...its_extinction

Hexaprotodon is a hippopotamid genus first reported from the late Miocene of Eurasia that reached a wide geographic range in a short period of time, mostly due to the availability of the unoccupied niche for large semiaquatic herbivores (Falconer and Cautley, 1836; Colbert, 1935; Hooijer, 1950; Barry et al., 2002). The weak extension of the canine process and short diastema in Hexaprotodon can be considered the primitive characters of hippopotamids, occurring in taxa known from the late Miocene and early Pliocene (Coryndon, 1977, 1978; Geze, 1980; Harris, 1991). The oldest occurrence of Hex. sivalensis is recorded from the late Miocene (Barry et al., 2002) from the Siwaliks. Moreover, it was recorded from the Tatrot Formation of the Upper Siwalik Subgroup, dated 3.4–2.6 Ma, prevailing through to the late Pleistocene (Barry and Flynn, 1989).

PDF link: https://www.researchgate.net/profile...ication_detail

This link says they're from later Pleistocene desposits: https://www.jstor.org/stable/984572?...n_tab_contents

This paper concludes that hippopotamids went extinct in India as a result of lack of water for long periods of time. Hippos are in the water almost 24/7 so this actually makes perfect sense. It'd explain why hippos became extinct but elephants and rhinos didn't. My guess is the sivatherium became extinct cause it was prized much more by hunters due to its tall stature and possibly colorful coat pattern.

Another assumption of mine is that most hippos became extinct in India during the Middle Pleistocene and early part of the Late Pleistocene. Most of the Late Pleistocene (especially the period when humans settled) didn't have those kinds of temperate fluctuations as far as I'm aware. Would have been cool if they still survived.

Thanks for those studies. I was looking for information about this species to no avail. It's nice to know it may have existed up till or going into the Holocene but at the same time it's upsetting just thinking of the scale of species we may have lost as a result of the extinction event.

You're confusing South Asia with Southeast Asia, and maybe only southern SE Asia to be specific. Southeast Asia was a grassland in the past. The explanation for why animals survived the Quaternary extinction over there is that if became a rain forest during the Late Pleistocene before AMH established themselves there. It would have likely been part of a gradual process. For example, the Australian aboriginals co-existed with Australia's native wildlife for around 5000 years before they made the vast majority of them extinct. There's a reason why for much of pre-history, S/SE Asia was a million times more backwards than the rest of Asia. It's not a coincidence that animals survived there better than elsewhere. Also, some parts of SE Asia were forest and others were grassland:

Main conclusions The data suggest that during the last glacial there were several areas in the Sundaic region that remained forest covered: west of Sumatra, north-west of Borneo, the Malacca Straits and around Palawan. Other areas may have been covered by more open vegetation types like tree savanna, or open deciduous forest: on and to the east of the Malay/Thai Peninsula, the Java Sea area, including the Sunda Strait, and eastern Borneo.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_environments

No, South Asia was mostly grassland. I think most of the area we associate with southeast Asia/Indonesia now was still rainforest or broadleaf forest, but keep in mind a lot of new land was exposed in the Sunda shelf, and it does appear that much of that land was covered in grasslands. So I guess we're both right in a way.

[Mingle]

[QUOTE=Basilisk;5871891]I hadn't been aware that those ostriches were introduced to Arabia, I'd imagine it wouldn't have been too hard in the first place because there aren't any real differences in ecology between the Sahara and Arabia. Anyway, while looking this up I stumbled upon another fascinating story, which is that ostriches apparently may have existed in India up till the late pleistocene. That makes perfect sense because they did live all the way up till Iraq in recent times. Clearly desert is not a problem and they could have traveled the southern coast of Iran/Pakistan before reaching India. If this is true then it may have been another confirmed unfortunate casualty of the human expansion during the Pleistocene.

That's pretty interesting, can't believe I didn't know about them. They apparently did live in the northern part of South Asia.

Although the genus that the Asian ostriches belonged to is still here, it's too bad though that the species that lived in India/Asia is extinct, so reintroducing them doesn't seem like a possibility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_ostrich

If the DNA is preserved well enough, then they could revive the Asian ostrich via using the common ostrich as a surrogate mother. But I doubt it's preserved well enough since there probably would be news articles about scientists trying to revive it.

What are the chances of these cheetahs being reintroduced into the wild? I hope this doesn't turn into a narrow attempt to improve the health of captive individuals alone. I do hope that they can somehow help wild cheetahs too.

Pretty high I assume. The purpose of trying to increase their genetic diversity is so that cheetahs don't go extinct in the wild. At the moment, they're trying to increase the population of genetically diverse cheetahs. The Species Survival Plan says that one of their goals is reintroduction in the wild.

Thanks for those studies. I was looking for information about this species to no avail. It's nice to know it may have existed up till or going into the Holocene but at the same time it's upsetting just thinking of the scale of species we may have lost as a result of the extinction event.

Well at least in this specific case, the animal died cause of natural evolution. It couldn't adapt to the changing environment and life went on without it. But generally speaking, I agree. Best thing to focus on now is preserve the species that are remaining.

No, South Asia was mostly grassland. I think most of the area we associate with southeast Asia/Indonesia now was still rainforest or broadleaf forest, but keep in mind a lot of new land was exposed in the Sunda shelf, and it does appear that much of that land was covered in grasslands. So I guess we're both right in a way.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Looks like this is a topic I'll be reading about more. I tried searching for climate change in Pleistocene South Asia, but SE Asia kept coming up so I assumed you confused the two. Still, would you say that it was rain forest around the time that AMH arrived there?

[Borealis]

That's pretty interesting, can't believe I didn't know about them. They apparently did live in the northern part of South Asia.

Although the genus that the Asian ostriches belonged to is still here, it's too bad though that the species that lived in India/Asia is extinct, so reintroducing them doesn't seem like a possibility: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_ostrich

If the DNA is preserved well enough, then they could revive the Asian ostrich via using the common ostrich as a surrogate mother. But I doubt it's preserved well enough since there probably would be news articles about scientists trying to revive it.

I doubt that something like that is even on the table. Reviving Pleistocene animals is not exactly on the list of priorities for conservationists. They're more interested in bringing back animal species that either disappeared in the wild recently or expanding the range of those that are now restricted. If any pleistocene animal is likely to be brought back to life at any point in time it's probably the woolly mammoth. But to be honest, I'm not a fan of cloning at all. It disturbs me :/

The things you learn sometimes is fascinating. I wasn't aware of this, but one of the papers about Caspian tiger reintroduction said that the densities of caspian tigers was pretty high approaching that of Bengal tigers. I had no idea about that.

Well at least in this specific case, the animal died cause of natural evolution. It couldn't adapt to the changing environment and life went on without it. But generally speaking, I agree. Best thing to focus on now is preserve the species that are remaining.

Didn't the article mention that human activity could have also been a factor in this? I wouldn't rule something like that out in the late pleistocene when there's evidence of plenty of animals going extinct due to human related activity already.

I see, thanks for the clarification. Looks like this is a topic I'll be reading about more. I tried searching for climate change in Pleistocene South Asia, but SE Asia kept coming up so I assumed you confused the two. Still, would you say that it was rain forest around the time that AMH arrived there?

The last glacial period started around 110,000 years ago and ended 15,000 years ago and humans are said to have left Africa 70,000 years ago, so I'm willing to bet the area was of a similar vegetation to what the map shows. I could be wrong though-climate and topography changes rapidly and often unpredictably.

[PaleoEuropean]

I gotta say that camels are one of my most favorite animals, and I'm glad that the ancestors of Arabians managed to domesticate the dromedary camels



It's hard to believe that the most favorite animal among Arabs and Horners actually came from North America many millions of years ago.

The U.S Army imported Camels and for a while they roamed around the Southwest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi_Jolly