Ancestral purity or genetic mirage? The case of Macedonia

[Crn Volk]

Interesting article

http://www.ekathimerini.com/235622/o...e-of-macedonia



Ancestral purity or genetic mirage? The case of Macedonia


The year 2018 has transformed relations between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). The Prespes agreement, signed on June 12, attempts to resolve the Macedonia name dispute, so that Greece will permit FYROM entry to the European Union and to NATO. It was followed by a vote by the FYROM Parliament on September 30 to change its name to “North Macedonia.” Direct flights between the two capitals started on November 1.

The Yugoslavian state of Macedonia became independent in 1993 under the name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.” Greek governments have been opposed to the inclusion of the term “Macedonia” in the country’s name. They argue that FYROM citizens are Slavs who speak a Bulgarian dialect, unlike the ancient Macedonians who were Greek and spoke a Greek dialect. Alexander the Great could not possibly be related to Slavs, who moved to the region in the 6th century AD.

The moves to solve the impasse have been met with resistance in both countries. FYROM is informally called Macedonia, and its citizens resent the change of name. Nationalist sentiments are fueled by an onslaught of fake and distorted news, aimed at stoking mutual anger and distrust. The drums of war are rolling, and some Greeks could try to defend their besmirched honor in the abducted name of Macedonia, as if the region were Helen of Troy.

But what if Helen were a mirage? The ancient playwright Euripides developed the scenario that “Eleni” had never been in Troy; the gods had placed an idol in her place. The famous Nobelist George Seferis used the metaphor to argue that thousands of people died fighting for an “empty shirt.”

The metaphor is again apt. The spoiler gods are the DNA codes of the inhabitants. They ride on a chariot of genomics, a biology branch aimed at decoding the human genome and its variations. And they dispel myths of ancestral purity and direct descendance from glorious men. This is story that emerges.

Homo sapiens settled Europe in about three migration waves. The first wave came from Africa about 43,000 years ago; the men were hunters and the women were gatherers of plants. They were gradually displaced or absorbed by a second migration, 9,000 years ago, that came from the Near East. These Neolithic-age settlers were farmers with families who merged with the first wave.

About 5,000 years ago, a third migration wave originated from the Caucasus Mountains. Perhaps 90 percent of the migrants were men, who were herders and rode horses. They were warlike and bred with local women, either by force or by choice. They mainly spoke Indo-European languages that morphed into Greek, Illyrian, Thracian, Phrygian and others. In Macedonia and Epirus these tribes settled near each other and intermarried. According to ancient historians (Strabo), many residents were bilingual in the 4th century BC.

Philip II and his son, Alexander the Great, descended from mixed families and also married non-Greek women. Contemporary FYROM was inhabited mainly by Paionians, who allied themselves with Athens and were militarily subjugated by Philip. Paionians seem to have become eventually Roman citizens. (A 5th century AD Paionian resident wrote in Greek.) Furthermore the borders of an entity called “Macedonia” changed multiple times over the centuries.

Tribal migrations continued for the next 1,500 years or so, bringing Germans, Slavs and ultimately Turks to Europe. Like the earlier Indo-Europeans, the Slavs were numerous and fought hard, so they appear to have been mainly males. Research from Poland and elsewhere suggests that Slavs married local women, whose maternal lineage descended from the second migration wave. So on one hand, the male Macedonians of the 4th BC century may be only remotely related to the male Slavs of the 6th century AD. But on the other, the mothers of both ethnicities have been largely in Europe since the Neolithic era. Women may have changed ethnicity, language and religion, but the mitochondrial DNA points to the origin.

More research is under way, but existing DNA analyses show similar distributions of haplogroups in Greece and FYROM. Thus it can be roughly stated that Greeks and FYROM citizens are closely related at least on the maternal side.

Furthermore, a lack of relationship is impossible, even on the paternal side. The earth around the start of the Common Era numbered perhaps 300 million humans, and today’s 8 billion descend from them. In fact mathematical ancestry estimates suggest common ancestors for entire countries. Thus, it seems genetically impossible to distinguish Greek Macedonians from FYROM citizens.

So the belief that ancient Macedonia was exclusively Greek is a mirage. In their most glorious moments, the Macedonian men and women shared the space with Illyrians, Paionians, Thracians, Celts, Phrygians and others. And surely many of them spoke the languages of their neighbors and relatives.

Science changes the discourse about Macedonia. Can the two sides use it to overcome folk beliefs? There are huge political and environmental issues that must be jointly tackled. If globalist Alexander were alive, he might advise both sides to ignore provocations and the empty shirt of racial purity. Probably everyone born in the region shares ancestors with him. Greece and North Macedonia can best honor him by forming a lasting alliance.

[Papastratosels26]

We are a mix of Slavs and Aromanians. Nothing else.

[Crn Volk]

Why the thumb down Kaido?
I haven’t even made a comment about your half German ancestry

[Petros Houhoulis]

Interesting article

http://www.ekathimerini.com/235622/o...e-of-macedonia



Ancestral purity or genetic mirage? The case of Macedonia


The year 2018 has transformed relations between Greece and the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM). The Prespes agreement, signed on June 12, attempts to resolve the Macedonia name dispute, so that Greece will permit FYROM entry to the European Union and to NATO. It was followed by a vote by the FYROM Parliament on September 30 to change its name to “North Macedonia.” Direct flights between the two capitals started on November 1.

The Yugoslavian state of Macedonia became independent in 1993 under the name “Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.” Greek governments have been opposed to the inclusion of the term “Macedonia” in the country’s name. They argue that FYROM citizens are Slavs who speak a Bulgarian dialect, unlike the ancient Macedonians who were Greek and spoke a Greek dialect. Alexander the Great could not possibly be related to Slavs, who moved to the region in the 6th century AD.

The moves to solve the impasse have been met with resistance in both countries. FYROM is informally called Macedonia, and its citizens resent the change of name. Nationalist sentiments are fueled by an onslaught of fake and distorted news, aimed at stoking mutual anger and distrust. The drums of war are rolling, and some Greeks could try to defend their besmirched honor in the abducted name of Macedonia, as if the region were Helen of Troy.

But what if Helen were a mirage? The ancient playwright Euripides developed the scenario that “Eleni” had never been in Troy; the gods had placed an idol in her place. The famous Nobelist George Seferis used the metaphor to argue that thousands of people died fighting for an “empty shirt.”

The metaphor is again apt. The spoiler gods are the DNA codes of the inhabitants. They ride on a chariot of genomics, a biology branch aimed at decoding the human genome and its variations. And they dispel myths of ancestral purity and direct descendance from glorious men. This is story that emerges.

Homo sapiens settled Europe in about three migration waves. The first wave came from Africa about 43,000 years ago; the men were hunters and the women were gatherers of plants. They were gradually displaced or absorbed by a second migration, 9,000 years ago, that came from the Near East. These Neolithic-age settlers were farmers with families who merged with the first wave.

About 5,000 years ago, a third migration wave originated from the Caucasus Mountains. Perhaps 90 percent of the migrants were men, who were herders and rode horses. They were warlike and bred with local women, either by force or by choice. They mainly spoke Indo-European languages that morphed into Greek, Illyrian, Thracian, Phrygian and others. In Macedonia and Epirus these tribes settled near each other and intermarried. According to ancient historians (Strabo), many residents were bilingual in the 4th century BC.

Philip II and his son, Alexander the Great, descended from mixed families and also married non-Greek women. Contemporary FYROM was inhabited mainly by Paionians, who allied themselves with Athens and were militarily subjugated by Philip. Paionians seem to have become eventually Roman citizens. (A 5th century AD Paionian resident wrote in Greek.) Furthermore the borders of an entity called “Macedonia” changed multiple times over the centuries.

Tribal migrations continued for the next 1,500 years or so, bringing Germans, Slavs and ultimately Turks to Europe. Like the earlier Indo-Europeans, the Slavs were numerous and fought hard, so they appear to have been mainly males. Research from Poland and elsewhere suggests that Slavs married local women, whose maternal lineage descended from the second migration wave. So on one hand, the male Macedonians of the 4th BC century may be only remotely related to the male Slavs of the 6th century AD. But on the other, the mothers of both ethnicities have been largely in Europe since the Neolithic era. Women may have changed ethnicity, language and religion, but the mitochondrial DNA points to the origin.

More research is under way, but existing DNA analyses show similar distributions of haplogroups in Greece and FYROM. Thus it can be roughly stated that Greeks and FYROM citizens are closely related at least on the maternal side.

Furthermore, a lack of relationship is impossible, even on the paternal side. The earth around the start of the Common Era numbered perhaps 300 million humans, and today’s 8 billion descend from them. In fact mathematical ancestry estimates suggest common ancestors for entire countries. Thus, it seems genetically impossible to distinguish Greek Macedonians from FYROM citizens.

So the belief that ancient Macedonia was exclusively Greek is a mirage. In their most glorious moments, the Macedonian men and women shared the space with Illyrians, Paionians, Thracians, Celts, Phrygians and others. And surely many of them spoke the languages of their neighbors and relatives.

Science changes the discourse about Macedonia. Can the two sides use it to overcome folk beliefs? There are huge political and environmental issues that must be jointly tackled. If globalist Alexander were alive, he might advise both sides to ignore provocations and the empty shirt of racial purity. Probably everyone born in the region shares ancestors with him. Greece and North Macedonia can best honor him by forming a lasting alliance.

You are still not related to Ancient Macedonians, but to Ancient Paeonians at best. Therefore you are still usurping the name...

[Aspar]

You are still not related to Ancient Macedonians, but to Ancient Paeonians at best. Therefore you are still usurping the name...

In 280 BC, the Gallic invaders under Brennus ravaged the land of the Paeonians, who, being further hard pressed by the Dardani, had no alternative but to join the Macedonians. Despite their combined efforts, however, the Paeonians and Macedonians were defeated. Paeonia consolidated again but, in 217 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon (220–179 BC), the son of Demetrius II, succeeded in uniting and incorporating into his empire the separate regions of Dassaretia and Paeonia. A mere 70 years later (in 168 BC), Roman legions conquered Macedon in turn, and a new and much larger Roman province bearing this name was formed. Paeonia around the Axios formed the second and third districts respectively of the newly constituted Roman province of Macedonia. Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum.

- Livy xiv. 29

[Coolguy1]

In 280 BC, the Gallic invaders under Brennus ravaged the land of the Paeonians, who, being further hard pressed by the Dardani, had no alternative but to join the Macedonians. Despite their combined efforts, however, the Paeonians and Macedonians were defeated. Paeonia consolidated again but, in 217 BC, the Macedonian king Philip V of Macedon (220–179 BC), the son of Demetrius II, succeeded in uniting and incorporating into his empire the separate regions of Dassaretia and Paeonia. A mere 70 years later (in 168 BC), Roman legions conquered Macedon in turn, and a new and much larger Roman province bearing this name was formed. Paeonia around the Axios formed the second and third districts respectively of the newly constituted Roman province of Macedonia. Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum.

- Livy xiv. 29

Lol, you are basically admitting that Paeonians lived in your country, and that they just "joined" the Macedonians in an alliance. They were two separate ethnic groups, you have Paeonian ancestry at best.

[Aspar]

Lol, you are basically admitting that Paeonians lived in your country, and that they just "joined" the Macedonians in an alliance. They were two separate ethnic groups, you have Paeonian ancestry at best.

Nevertheless the Paeonians accepted the Macedonian identity at the end and the newly formed Roman province of Macedonia includes the region of Rep. of Macedonia!
But the Macedonians were not only Doric Greeks, but Paeonian mountaineers as well, although the ruling class was Doric Greek!
The Roman province of Macedonia is enough proof that we have right on the name as much as you!

[Crn Volk]

You are still not related to Ancient Macedonians, but to Ancient Paeonians at best. Therefore you are still usurping the name...

Pero you are from Serres. Sorry to break it to you, but you have no relation to the ancient Macedonians...

Serres

The most ancient known inhabitants of the area were the Bryges (Phrygians) and Strymonians; afterwards (since 1100 BC) were Siriopaiones [4] and finally (from the early 5th century BC until the end of antiquity) the Thracian tribe of Odomantes.[5] These populations mainly engaged in agriculture and cattle-raising especially worshiped the Sun, the deified river Strymon and later the "Thracian horseman".[6]

[Aspar]

I recommend to everyone to read the book "Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation" by John Shea!

Some parts of it:

[Crn Volk]

I recommend to everyone to read the book "Macedonia and Greece: The Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation" by John Shea!

Some parts of it:

Yes, I have this book. Good read.