Biblical: Patrilineal Jewish heritage

[Óttar]

If there's nothing interesting to you in Judaism, why do you give a fuck what the Ultra-Orthodox rabbis think? Most Jews don't follow their bullshit. To me, if you consider yourself Jewish despite all the shit we've been through and the "reputation" we have - you're a Jew.

Still, you're wrong about one thing. The "Rabbinical or Talmudic culture" as you put it has everything to do with the ancient Hebrew people. The Talmud and the Rabbis have existed since before the Second Temple was built. The Temple was and is the holiest site in Judaism, and by definition Jews (also known as the Hebrew people), at least up until the enlightenment, followed Judaism.

Genetic tests have shown that certain Indian Jews have the most direct connection to the Jews of ancient Babylon. It has been documented that they have practiced Judaism for at least 1,000 years (attested with textual evidence), yet they have to be vetted by a bunch of Polish-derived Orthodox rabbis in Israel to be considered "real" Jews.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Judah had his children with a canaanite woman, Tamar, by pure matrilineal line, jews don't exist.

[ModernMaskil]

Genetic tests have shown that certain Indian Jews have the most direct connection to the Jews of ancient Babylon. It has been documented that they have practiced Judaism for at least 1,000 years (attested with textual evidence), yet they have to be vetted by a bunch of Polish-derived Orthodox rabbis in Israel to be considered "real" Jews.

Other than the Pardesis and Baghdadis, who trace their origins to Sephardi and Iraqi Jews respectively I'm not aware of any Indian Jewish groups with any genetic connection whatsoever to either Babylonian or Levantine Jews.

They can be vetted by "Iraqi derived" rabbis in Israel too, if they choose. Ashkenazim don't have a monopoly on the rabbinate. And those "Polish derived Orthodox rabbis" have also practiced Judaism for over 1000 years, and also have a "direct connection to the Jews of Babylon", depending what you mean by that. If anything, by the way, they are derived from the Levant and Central Europe, not Poland.

[Óttar]

Other than the Pardesis and Baghdadis, who trace their origins to Sephardi and Iraqi Jews respectively I'm not aware of any Indian Jewish groups with any genetic connection whatsoever to either Babylonian or Levantine Jews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneti...of_Indian_Jews

[ModernMaskil]

Genetic analysis shows that the Bene Israel of India cluster with the indigenous populations of western India, but do have a clear paternal link to the populations of the Levant.

Where do you see anything about Babylonian Jews? Also that statement means that those Polish derived rabbis have far more of a connection to ancient Jews than Indian Jews do.

[Óttar]

Where do you see anything about Babylonian Jews? Also that statement means that those Polish derived rabbis have far more of a connection to ancient Jews than Indian Jews do.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5020127/

Maybe you're right. Upon further research, it seems that their connection to Babylonian Jewry is speculative, perhaps bordering on mythological, but it has been shown that their presence in India and identity as Jews has been attested since the 9th century, and I just find it strange that their sincerity or authenticity as Jews has to be vetted by Ashkenazim in 19th century Russian clothing.

[Longbowman]

Hey guys.

So in rabbinical Judaism a person is jewish if his mother was jewish. This comes from the roman law "Mater semper certa est" - the mother is always certain.

But as we read in the Tanach (Old Testament), the heritage of the Jews is confirmed by Avraham, Jaakov and Yitzchak. Nowhere in the bible is stated, that a man is not a Jew if his mother was not jewish.

So is it biblical to call a patrilineal Jew a Jew? Of course it would not be rabbinically or talmudic confirmed, but they may are wrong.

Interesting perspective but lacking nuance, my patrilineal Christian friend. Ezra makes it clear that having a Jewish father is not sufficient:

Ezra 9:

9 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, “The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness.”

3 When I heard this, I tore my tunic and cloak, pulled hair from my head and beard and sat down appalled. 4 Then everyone who trembled at the words of the God of Israel gathered around me because of this unfaithfulness of the exiles. And I sat there appalled until the evening sacrifice.

5 Then, at the evening sacrifice, I rose from my self-abasement, with my tunic and cloak torn, and fell on my knees with my hands spread out to the Lord my God 6 and prayed:

“I am too ashamed and disgraced, my God, to lift up my face to you, because our sins are higher than our heads and our guilt has reached to the heavens. 7 From the days of our ancestors until now, our guilt has been great. Because of our sins, we and our kings and our priests have been subjected to the sword and captivity, to pillage and humiliation at the hand of foreign kings, as it is today.

8 “But now, for a brief moment, the Lord our God has been gracious in leaving us a remnant and giving us a firm place[a] in his sanctuary, and so our God gives light to our eyes and a little relief in our bondage. 9 Though we are slaves, our God has not forsaken us in our bondage. He has shown us kindness in the sight of the kings of Persia: He has granted us new life to rebuild the house of our God and repair its ruins, and he has given us a wall of protection in Judah and Jerusalem.

10 “But now, our God, what can we say after this? For we have forsaken the commands 11 you gave through your servants the prophets when you said: ‘The land you are entering to possess is a land polluted by the corruption of its peoples. By their detestable practices they have filled it with their impurity from one end to the other. 12 Therefore, do not give your daughters in marriage to their sons or take their daughters for your sons. Do not seek a treaty of friendship with them at any time, that you may be strong and eat the good things of the land and leave it to your children as an everlasting inheritance.’

13 “What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we then break your commands again and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 Lord, the God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence.”

It is very evident that it is not permissible to marry a foreigner who has not converted. It is 'pollution' (God's word not mine). Sorry!

Perhaps this is your confusion: Abraham was not a Jew, or an Israelite, merely ancestral to Israelites. You, as a half-Israelite, may be considered half-Israelite, but in no way are you considered Jewish, which is a somewhat different concept and additionally you would not have been considered Jewish by the great sages of antiquity or of the Bible, particularly Ezra, of course.

[ModernMaskil]

I just find it strange that their sincerity or authenticity as Jews has to be vetted by Ashkenazim in 19th century Russian clothing.

Well, I agree with that - lol. Should've said so in the first place. As I've already mentioned so long as someone considers themselves a Jew they're a Jew as far as I'm concerned.

[Mo123]

Judah had his children with a canaanite woman, Tamar, by pure matrilineal line, jews don't exist.

Juda married a canaanite woman, and Tamar was the wife of one of his sons. She gave birth to two sons of Juda, but the bible doesn't say if she was hebrew or canaanite.

[Longbowman]

Well, I agree with that - lol. Should've said so in the first place. As I've already mentioned so long as someone considers themselves a Jew they're a Jew as far as I'm concerned.

Not in any meaningful way. There are 1/8 Ashkenazim in the US who are Anglo in every single way who try to speak for Jews. Their self-identification is meaningless. Another meaningless example is the Jews for Jesus community which tries to get schools in my area to let them lecture kids about Judaism. Another ridiculous auto-designation. They're mostly not ethnic Jews either.