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Israel's attitudes towards the Bosnian War
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Thread: Israel's attitudes towards the Bosnian War

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    Default Israel's attitudes towards the Bosnian War

    For many years, Israel was among the most supportive countries towards the Serbs during the Bosnian Civil War - it sold them arms, and didn't break off diplomatic and economic relations with Serbia even as most Western countries were doing so. Partly this was due to a shared apathy and suspicion towards Muslims, and partly it was due to a residual sense of gratitude to the Serbs, who for the most part fought alongside the Jews against the Nazis and Ustashe. It was only after the Srebenica massacre that Israeli politicians started to condemn the Serbs as vociferously as many other governments around the world. Do read this all, from page 90 onwards: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...serbia&f=false

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    What Serbs did to Croats and people of Bosnia was terrible.
    After not shaving for a while:

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    No one knows real situation if not there. Just like we here cannot know situation in Israel as they do daily, they couldnt see situation here durin 90s.

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    Serbia was first Juden-frei country in Europe so I don't see the reason why should Jews hold special feelings towards Serbs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić View Post
    Serbia was first Juden-frei country in Europe so I don't see the reason why should Jews hold special feelings towards Serbs.
    Israeli support doesn't necessarily mean they love serbs..

    they probably wanted to earn money. the longer the war lasts, the more money you can earn + you can sell old junk and test your newest toys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić View Post
    Serbia was first Juden-frei country in Europe so I don't see the reason why should Jews hold special feelings towards Serbs.
    Jews never had any special feelings for Serbs, they dont care for Serbs.

    From what I heard irl from israelis, serbs are small fishes for israeli influence.

    Croatia also for that matter.

    But one have to mention special Croatian-Israeli relations in last 5 years, total alliance in military and geopolitics.

    Israeli army came last year to Croatia to honour our army from 90s which created negative reactions in serbia.

    With that move Israel placed itself directly with Croatia when it comes about this region, etc...
    Last edited by Robocop; 03-31-2019 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić View Post
    Serbia was first Juden-frei country in Europe so I don't see the reason why should Jews hold special feelings towards Serbs.
    Have you ever delved deeper than just reading a government slogan and take it for face value?
    Why is Israel waffling on Kosovo

    While the West has gone to war against Yugoslavian President Slobodan Milosevic, the Israeli government has remained quiet, primarily an observer in the background.

    Within the halls of the Knesset, the name Milosevic is spoken only with great effort. Government officials shy away from the term Serbs, and prefer not to say anything about bombing.

    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and especially Foreign Minister Ariel Sharon, couch the agony of Kosovo in humanitarian, not political, terms. They try not to play the blame game.

    The government has stepped up aid to the Kosovo refugees, and Netanyahu, at least, has managed to get out a sentence or two in support of the NATO military campaign, which is aimed at stopping the onslaught against Kosovo's 1.8 million ethnic Albanians.

    "Israel," Netanyahu has said, "condemns the massacre being carriedout by the Serbs, and denounces any mass murder."

    But other than that, there's been nary a peep from Netanyahu's administration about this incident, which many would classify as a world crisis.

    Why the silence?

    One reason is the Jewish history with the Serbs, who rule Yugoslavia. The Serbs saved thousands of Yugoslavian Jews from the Nazis, and fought with the Jews as partisans.

    Many in Israel are also under the incorrect assumption that the Serbs were totally on the Jews' side in World War II, while the Serbs' enemies — in this case, the ethnic Albanians in Kosovo, most of whom are Muslims — all sided with the Nazis.

    Additionally, there is the fear — as reportedly spoken by Sharon — that the NATO bombings could be repeated one day on Israel as a means to force a resolution in its dispute with the Palestinians.

    Add to this the fact that Israel's relations with Serbia have been problematic ever since the disintegration of Yugoslavia earlier in the decade, and one starts to see why Israel's government has been hesitant to speak out on the issue.

    Even the images of massacres and streams of refugees as ethnic Albanians flee their native Kosovo — images that hearken back to the Jews' own treatment at the hands of the Nazis — have not been enough to shake the Israeli government from its slumber regarding the situation.

    A source close to Netanyahu acknowledged that there had been a "lack of definition" in the prime minister's reactions at first. The source attributed that to Netanyahu's preoccupation with his election campaign, adding that "perhaps the scope and seriousness of [the events in Kosovo] didn't sink in right away."

    Some observers also note that while Israel's closest ally, the United States, is leading the NATO assault, Netanyahu may have been concerned that he would ruffle the feathers of Russia — the strongest opponent of the bombing — by supporting it. Netanyahu, they noted, has begun cultivating warm relations with Russia.

    The prime minister's most definitive political statement came March 31 during a radio interview while meeting a group of Yugoslavian Jews who had just arrived in Israel.

    Netanyahu said he had been asked his position on the NATO campaign and had made his position clear: "We stand behind the effort, the effort of NATO and President Clinton to end this tragedy."

    However, Sharon, was less enthusiastic regarding the NATO strikes.

    In remarks quoted last week by the newspaper Yediot Achronot, Sharon told a closed-door audience that Israel had reason not to support the strikes out of fear that the Jewish state might one day be similarly targeted.

    The newspaper said he asked his audience to imagine what might happen if the Israeli Arabs in the Galilee ever demanded that their region be recognized as autonomous — with links to the Palestinian Authority.

    Would NATO strike at Israel under such a scenario as it had done in the wake of the Kosovo Albanians' attempts at autonomy? Sharon asked.

    Sharon subsequently denied the report, stating that Israel expects the NATO forces to do "their utmost to end the misery of innocent people and renew the negotiations between the parties as soon as possible."

    On a U.S. visit Monday and Tuesday, Sharon also went on to warn that the plight of ethnic Albanians could spread Islamic unrest and lead to a "new center of Islamic terroism" in Europe.

    "The free world must look forward and see dangers in the future if a large bloc of Islamic states should develop what it's possible to call a Greater Albania," he said.

    Among Israelis, just as within the government, there are similar differences of opinion about how to respond to the situation in Kosovo.

    While it is virtually impossible to find an Israeli who will give specific support to Milosevic's assault on the people of Kosovo, many identify with his political predicament. In their view, the Serbs, like the Israelis, are unfairly seen as the "neighborhood bully" beating up on a weaker enemy, when the bullies have actually suffered greatly at the hands of the so-called "underdogs."

    "Many Israelis see the West interfering with the Serbs' affairs out of ignorance and arrogance, just like they see the West interfering in Israel," said Arnon Sofer, a Haifa University geography professor who has been researching Kosovo for decades.

    Sofer said many Israelis also identify with Milosevic as a "wounded lion" who, in the last decade, has been compelled by Western force and pressure to concede piece after piece of what he considers Serbian country.

    "We gave up the Sinai and Gaza and part of the West Bank, and now they want us to give up the Golan. Same thing," Sofer said, describing a common Israeli attitude.

    However, another typical attitude — that all Albanians sided with the Nazis during World War II — is false, said Avi Pazner, chairman of Keren Hayesod and formerly Israel's first ambassador to Albania, which borders Kosovo.

    "Except for the Danes, the Albanians were the only people in Europe who rescued their country's entire Jewish community," Pazner said.

    Miriam Steiner-Aviezer, a researcher into Yugoslavian Jewry and a member of Yad Vashem's Righteous Gentiles committee, agreed.

    "The Serbs helped the Jews. The Croats helped the Jews. But the Albanians probably helped the Jews most," she said.

    But not all the Albanians were Righteous Gentiles, added Steiner-Aviezer.

    When Haj Amin el-Husseini, the pro-Nazi Mufti of Jerusalem, visited the Balkan region in 1943, he exhorted Muslims in Albania, Kosovo and Bosnia into forming the SS Division No. 21, she pointed out.

    As there were good and bad Albanians, so there were good and bad Serbs.

    "The Serbs saved many Jews. Contrary to their present image in the world, the Serbs are a friendly, loyal people who will not abandon their neighbors," Steiner-Aviezer said.

    Yet, among the Serbs, too, there was also a movement that collaborated with the Nazi invaders, added Steiner-Aviezer, who emigrated from Yugoslavia to Israel in 1971.

    In other words, those Israelis and government officials looking for a clear-cut good guy and bad guy in the scenario are out of luck.
    https://www.jweekly.com/1999/04/09/w...ing-on-kosovo/
    Serbia Death Camp to 'Multicultural' Development?

    Historians and Jewish leaders have expressed concern that Siberia’s largest World War II death camp may be transformed into a commercial development, The Jewish Chronicle (JC) reported.

    The leaders reportedly met to discuss the future of the Staro Sajmiste death camp, which is located on the outskirts of Belgrade, following reports that it may be turned into to “multicultural” development, with a memorial for the victims as merely part of the mix.

    Currently, there are nightclubs and a restaurant on a section of the site, the JC noted.

    Historian Christopher Browning who attended the conference stated, “Serbia was the only county outside Poland and the Soviet Union where all Jewish victims were killed on the spot without deportation, and was the first country after Estonia to be declared ‘Judenfrei,’” a term used by the Nazis during the Holocaust to denote an area free of all Jews.

    “Above all, it should be a place of public education,” said Alexandar Necak, former president of the Jewish communities in Serbia.

    Approximately 7,000 Jewish women and children were murdered at Sajmiste between November 1941 and May 1942. An additional 10,600 were killed or died of disease and starvation while interned at the camp from 1942 to 1944.
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...1#.UWQm58q86jg
    However, these were done mostly by Germans.

    Beside mass atrocities against the Serbian population by Wehrmacht units, their leading
    role in killing Jews marked the Holocaust in Serbia.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20140201...N%20SERBIA.pdf
    Action taken to eradicate Serbian Jews was organized in three phases. In the period from
    April to August 1941, registration and marking of Jews with yellow bands was carried out with the
    help of domestic collaborationist authorities. Registration of Jewish inhabitants inside the capital
    lasted three days and totaled approximately 8.500 individuals. In June 1941 out of approximately
    12.000 Jewish people that had lived in Belgrade up to the war, the final list of registered Jews
    counted 9.145 names. The remaining 3.000 never responded to the German order to register and
    went into hiding inside the city or sought shelter by escaping to the interior of Serbia or territories
    beyond German authority.33
    The chief of the German civilian administration, Turner, (Harald Turner, der Chef der
    Militarverwaltung in Serbien, SS-Gruppenfuhrer der Chef der Militarverwaltung in Serbien)
    explained how mass executions by firing squad had a double purpose: “retaliation” for rebel
    actions against German authority, and a quick elimination of Serbian Jews, passing on
    “responsibility” for mass crimes against Jews to the Resistance movement. Inclusion of Jews in the
    “quota” 100 to 1 (a hundred Serbian hostages for each killed member of the German occupation
    authority) was explained how “…they, too, were in fact Serbian citizens and must also be dealt
    with to extinction”.46 In these mass executions of civilians, according to certain approximations,
    some 5000 Jews above the age of 14 were shot. Thus at the beginning of November “…there were
    almost no living male Jews and Roma who could be used as hostages”.47
    Compliance with the horrific results achieved by the occupying forces in annihilating
    Jews in Serbia was expressed in one document of Milan Nedić’s “Government of national
    Salvation” by putting accent on the fact that “how, owing to the occupier, we have freed ourselves
    of Jews, and that it is now up to us to rid ourselves of other immoral elements standing in the way
    of Serbia’s spiritual and national unity.”62
    For reason of peremptory realization of all assigned orders, the role which
    collaborationist armed units (Serbian State Guard, Serbian Volunteers Corps) and the domestic
    police under both “Commissioner” and Milan Nedić “National Salvation” governments,

    (primarily the VII department of the Special police) had in raids, arrests of Jewish cohabitants and
    their subsequent delivery into the hands of occupying authorities,
    ranges among the most hideous
    episodes of collaborationism in Serbia during World War Two.63
    Last edited by Colonel Frank Grimes; 03-31-2019 at 06:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel Frank Grimes View Post
    Have you ever delved deeper than just reading a government slogan and take it for face value?
    Dude, Serbian collaborational forces like Nedić and Ljotić cleaned Serbia from Jews togheder with Germans.
    Partisan movement was not Serbian lmao.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Blade View Post
    What Serbs did to Croats and people of Bosnia was terrible.
    Neither group in this conflict is innocent. It's odd that when the Bosnian Croats turned on the Bosniaks suddenly there is talk of atrocities conducted against Croats and Bosniak civilians by both sides but yet we are supposed to believe that Croats and Bosniaks didn't do much of anything to Serbian civilians. So they commit horrible atrocities against each other (former allies) but against the main foe they're mostly honorable soldiers? It doesn't work that way.

    The real story behind Srebrenica

    This week marked the 10th anniversary of the United Nations' second greatest failure since its creation in 1945 -- the genocide in Rwanda being the undisputed No. 1. With much fanfare, the ceremonies focused on the massacre of "up to" 8,000 Bosnian men and boys by General Ratko Mladic's Bosnian Serb army in Srebrenica in July of 1995.

    In the vast majority of recent media reports, the background and responsibilities for the disaster in Srebrenica were absent. Preferred was the simple explanation: a black and white event in which the Serbs were solely to blame.

    As someone who played a modest role in some of the events preceding the massacre, perhaps a little background will provide some context. In early 1993, after my release from the Canadian Forces, I was asked to appear before a number of U.S. congressional committees dealing with Bosnia. A few months earlier, my successor in the UN Protection Force, General Philippe Morillon, had --against the advice of his UN masters -- bullied his way into Srebrenica accompanied by a tiny contingent of Canadian soldiers and told its citizens they were now under the protection of the UN. The folks at the UN in New York were furious with Gen. Morillon but, with the media on his side, they were forced to introduce the "safe haven" concept for six areas of Bosnia, including Srebrenica.

    Wondering what this concept would mean, one U.S. senator asked me how many troops it would take to defend the safe havens. "Somewhere in the neighbourhood of 135,000 troops," I replied. It had to be that large because of the Serb artillery's range. The new UN commander on the ground in Bosnia, Belgian General Francis Briquemont, said he agreed with my assessment but was prepared to try to defend the areas with 65,000 additional troops. The secretary-general of the day, Boutros Boutros-Ghali, went to the Security Council and recommended 27,500 additional troops. The Security Council approved a force of 12,000 and, six months later, fewer than 2,000 additional soldiers had been added to UNPROFOR for the safe-haven tasks.

    Then the Security Council changed the wording of the safe-haven resolution from "the UN will defend the safe havens" to "by their presence will the UN deter attacks on the safe havens." In other words, a tiny, token, lightly armed UN contingent would be placed as sacrificial lambs in Srebrenica to "deter" the Bosnian Serb army.

    It didn't take long for the Bosnian Muslims to realize that the UN was in no position to live up to its promise to "protect" Srebrenica. With some help from outsiders, they began to infiltrate thousands of fighters and weapons into the safe haven. As the Bosnian Muslim fighters became better equipped and trained, they started to venture outside Srebrenica, burning Serb villages and killing their occupants before quickly withdrawing to the security provided by the UN's safe haven. These attacks reached a crescendo in 1994 and carried on into early 1995 after the Canadian infantry company that had been there for a year was replaced by a larger Dutch contingent.

    The Bosnian Serbs might have had the heaviest weapons, but the Bosnian Muslims matched them in infantry skills that were much in demand in the rugged terrain around Srebrenica. As the snow cleared in the spring of 1995, it became obvious to Nasar Oric, the man who led the Bosnian Muslim fighters, that the Bosnian Serb army was going to attack Srebrenica to stop him from attacking Serb villages. So he and a large number of his fighters slipped out of town. Srebrenica was left undefended with the strategic thought that, if the Serbs attacked an undefended town, surely that would cause NATO and the UN to agree that NATO air strikes against the Serbs were justified. And so the Bosnian Serb army strolled into Srebrenica without opposition.

    What happened next is only debatable in scale. The Bosnian Muslim men and older boys were singled out and the elderly, women and children were moved out or pushed in the direction of Tuzla and safety. It's a distasteful point, but it has to be said that, if you're committing genocide, you don't let the women go since they are key to perpetuating the very group you are trying to eliminate. Many of the men and boys were executed and buried in mass graves.

    Evidence given at The Hague war crimes tribunal casts serious doubt on the figure of "up to" 8,000 Bosnian Muslims massacred. That figure includes "up to" 5,000 who have been classified as missing. More than 2,000 bodies have been recovered in and around Srebrenica, and they include victims of the three years of intense fighting in the area. The math just doesn't support the scale of 8,000 killed.

    Nasar Oric, the Bosnian Muslim military leader in Srebrenica, is currently on trial in The Hague for war crimes committed during his "defence" of the town. Evidence to date suggests that he was responsible for killing as many Serb civilians outside Srebrenica as the Bosnian Serb army was for massacring Bosnian Muslims inside the town.

    Two wrongs never made a right, but those moments in history that shame us all because of our indifference should not be viewed in isolation without the context that created them.
    https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...article737584/
    Retired major-general Lewis MacKenzie was the first commander of UN peacekeeping forces in Sarajevo.

    As with everything a situation is more complicated than it appears. A horrible event but it didn't come from a void. It was a consequence of previous horrible events targeting Serbian civilians. Two wrongs don't make a right but it's dishonest to pretend people were killed for the sake of being killed. They targeted men and teens 14 and over to share responsibility for those previous attacks on Serbian civilians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić View Post
    Dude, Serbian collaborational forces like Nedić and Ljotić cleaned Serbia from Jews togheder with Germans.
    Partisan movement was not Serbian lmao.
    You didn't read what I quoted. If you had you wouldn't have reponded with the above. If you look at my last quote there was no denying Serbians (police force and such) helped rounding up Jews. They didn't, however, kill them. They handed them over to the Germans. It wasn't a Serbian organized initiative. It's not like the Germans said, "You handle these Jews for us."

    That being said, the main point is missed by you. There were always collaborators in every country but the Serbian people did more to aid Jews than the opposite. You based your belief that Jews owe nothing to Serbians based on a statement by a collaborator that wasn't even accurate.

    I didn't say the Partisan movement was strictly a Serbian movement. I didn't say anything about Partisans. I'm responsible for what I say. I'm not responsible for you putting words in my mouth because you think it benefits you.

    Is this what bothered you from the article?

    One reason is the Jewish history with the Serbs, who rule Yugoslavia. The Serbs saved thousands of Yugoslavian Jews from the Nazis, and fought with the Jews as partisans.
    The claim isn't being made that the Partisans were all Serbians. What is being said is Jews and Serbians fought alongside each other as Partisans. Unless you want to claim Partisans was strictly Croatian, which it wasn't, then I don't know what you're lamoing about. In fact, now that I think about it, the Partisans were predominately made up of Serbians initially. I stress inititally here because I recall you have reading comprehension problems and so I want you to focus on the key word initially to avoid any chimp outs.

    Some further digging:

    By 1944
    44% Serb, 30% Croat, 10% Slovene, 5% Montenegrin, 2.5% Macedonian, and 2.5% Bosnian Muslim
    This can be found on pg. 153
    https://books.google.com/books?id=FT...Muslim&f=false

    So even in 1944 they were still the dominant ethnic group among the Partisans. So I don't understand why you're taking issue with the article other than you're ignorant of your own national history.
    Last edited by Colonel Frank Grimes; 03-31-2019 at 07:26 PM.

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